I was at Jimmy John’s Restaurant this morning and actually heard the Lord tell me to pick up a magazine laying on the top of a counter there. When I looked at it and saw an icky Zombie on the cover I thought, no, that’s not the Lord. Then I heard again,” pick it up, there is an article about Wallis in it”. So I thought, weird, now I have to look to see if there actually is one. And sure enough, half way through was an article titled, “The World According to Robertus Maximus: Red-baiting Jim Wallis”.
So I read it and found it to be well, stupid. It’s a rant by well known local atheist, Robert Nordlander where he dices up Jesus into two separate people and slams the Word of God all while he explains why Wallis is good and should be left alone by idiot Christians(his sentiments) like Jake Jacobs and Robert Meyers. But after hearing the Lord like that about the article being in the magazine, and then finding it in there I was intrigued. So I sat there and asked the Lord why He showed me this.
Here is what I got: I feel that the content of the article itself is not the point but that the most well know ‘anti Christ’ person in the Valley, Robert Nordlander, is siding with Wallis and by proxy Bob Lenz/ Life Promotions. If we do actually fight against an enemy, and as most of you know the Bible says we do, then I think that this endorsement by a very ‘anti God’ man of Wallis, speaks to the thought that the enemy want this assimilation of Wallis’ false teaching into the gospel of Jesus Christ here in the Valley. I feel that Life Promotions has assisted in this plan by allowing Wallis a format/ platform from which to speak his false teachings into the Valley. Keep in mind his teachings haven’t come from just that speech but from the vast amount of printed material teaching it that was sold at Lifest as well. And then with Bob publicly endorsing him, creating the idea that Wallis’ teachings are worth standing up for and fighting for, gives the youth who paid attention the format in which to follow Wallis via the internet.
This issue isn’t going away because it addresses a fundamental change in the Body of Christ in the past two decades. The Evangelical Church has assumed the political correct agenda into even it’s doctrines. The Emergent Church Movement is one such example and of course the C5 Insider Movement in Missions is another. Why has the Church not grown and has only decreased in the U.S. in the past few decades we ask? We have taken ourselves out from under the headship of Jesus Christ and anything built on that sinking sand will not last. The Church is in trouble people. What will you do about it?
Part II: Response to Investigation of Sexual Abuse
September 20, 2023
Interesting observation. I agree. I Just did a search for Jim Wallis and found his bio on the Sojourners website. http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=about_us.display_staff&staff=Wallis
He seems dialed in and accepted by the mainstream media, which to me is a red flag right there.
Like you, I’m very concerned about the Emergent Church – and I’m not feeling all that great about the seeker friendly stuff either. Very disheartening.
Now I have a real problem with Wallis.
“After first denying doing so, Wallis admitted to accepting money for Sojourners from George Soros, who has financed groups supporting abortion and atheism. When Marvin Olasky pointed this out in a WORLD magazine column, Wallis said Olasky “lies for a living”; he subsequently apologized to Olasky for the comments.”
Here’s the link to the Wikipedia article I found.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Wallis
So, yes, it shouldn’t come as a suprise that an atheist would be sympethetic to Wallis.
The surprise comes when Bob Lenz hosts him on the Grand stand on Friday Night at Lifest and even after multiple local Pastors confront his choice and ask him to take Wallis out. The surprise also comes when Pastor Bill Lenz, pastor of Bob Lenz doesn’t take a stand against either. Just assisting Wallis to pump his garbage into the Valley. For me? This speaks to not allowing Christ to be the head of that church, therefore causing yet another reason to believe the CTR prophesies are true.
These are quite exaggerated accusations, and there really is no empirical to support your slanderous claims against the Lenz family.
You do have quite a talent for twisting language to make what appears to be logical rhetoric, but in reality your accusations are purely based on your so-called “prophesies”
and an article written by an atheist….
Maybe if Bob Lenz had a blog and started his post by claiming he heard the lord tell him step by step ways to slander and libel his competitors, opponents, or people he was jealous of, then maybe you’d believe Christ had some bearing on his witness.
“I was at Jimmy John’s Restaurant this morning and actually heard the Lord tell me to pick up a magazine laying on the top of a counter there.” …”Then I heard again,” pick it up, there is an article about Wallis in it”
—-Do you really think people should believe this type of wild, unprovable type of claim that you have a direct connection to the ultimate authority. I’d say you are of a far larger concern to those seeking Christ than the Lenz family, or CTR.
Joie, These people do not want the truth. They are wrapped up in some delusion/lie that the Lenz’s are spreading about you. When I spoke with Bob about all of this I couldn’t believe his demeanor. He is playing victim along with Bill instead of asking God what is true. They need to get out of their flesh and discern what is going on. They clearly are not doing that from their responses. I love you for fighting the good fight and staying true to God and his gift to you. I know how difficult it all can be. Stay strong sister!
Anonymous~ you write, “These are quite exaggerated accusations, and there really is no empirical to support your slanderous claims against the Lenz family.” What are you speaking about exactly? That Lenz hosted Wallis? That Bill said nothing in opposition of Wallis? These things can, in fact, be proven. Wallis’ false teaching can also be extensively proven.
I suggest you take a breath, sit before the Lord, and simply ask Him if what I am saying is true. If you don’t seem to get an answer then look to the Word of God about what is important here. The teachings of Wallis. Take them to the scriptures. The beliefs of CTR and Life Promotions about these issues. What does the Bible say about joining in ministry with heretics? Try not to let the lies and rhetoric distract you from what the leadership at CTR don’t want you to see, the bottom line. The real issue. The point. Try to wade through what you have heard about me, and your loyalties for the Lenz’s and simply seek the truth about the real issues.
Then come on back let us know what you’ve come up with.
You’re skirting the issue at hand, and denying plain truth. You clearly assert that Life promotions is assisting Willis in spreading false teachings, and allude to the “unwritten” accusation that the Lenzes somehow support pro choice and atheist groups by associating with a man who, by the media, was connected quite indirectly to a mutual funding source.
I’m not exactly sure what you, or God’s point (considering you write of the two as synonymous), in this whole Lenz conspiracy is, but I think you maybe should reconsider why you’re so passionate to libel and slander this family.
I might add that I have no loyalties to the Lenz’s whatsoever, in fact I don’t attend church at CTR or associate with any of the Lenz’s on any level at all.
I stumbled upon your blog, and have had quite a good deal of exposure to the situation between you and CTR, you know, the “prophecies”. I am not trying to defend the Lenz’s at all, I could honestly care less about their reputations, but what I do care about is the hypocrisy of your preposterous stance on this long standing issue between you and CTR. Slander, libel, and personal character attacks hardly seem in line with the teachings of Christ.
What is this really about?
What is so bad about CTR/Lenz family? How is their faults any more severe than your faults or mine, or any other religious leader. At least they don’t rape young boys as is the Catholic tradition.
“At least they don’t rape young boys”. Why are you setting the bar so high for this church? Isnt forbidding child molestation a bit excessive?
Is that really the standard we are supposed to set on a church these days? I have no horse in either race (CtR or CCV), but you should be able to easily discern the heresy in C5 teachings without having to wipe the dust off that bible.
The apostles were severely persecuted for their defense of Christ. That was the standard to be a Christian preacher. If only God and those apostles had the benefit of our new “enlightenment”, then many an apostle’s life would have been spared.
I mean, why couldnt God think of that? Just send Paul in all stealth mode to these areas, and slip passages under their pillows while they slept? Couldve had a painless revolution in which nobody would have had to face controversy or get bent out of shape over these tiny details.
How is that CtR has come to know so much more than God about how to administer to people of other faiths?
Again, where are you getting this idea that CTR is trying to overstep God and how to administer to people of other faiths?
Is it because they are a large and popular church?
Furthermore, am I reading post #8 right?
…..”The apostles were severely persecuted for their defense of Christ. That was the standard to be a Christian preacher. If only God and those apostles had the benefit of our new “enlightenment”, then many an apostle’s life would have been spared.
I mean, why couldnt God think of that? Just send Paul in all stealth mode to these areas, and slip passages under their pillows while they slept? Couldve had a painless revolution in which nobody would have had to face controversy or get bent out of shape over these tiny details.”……
Is the former statement really a comparison between this crusade against CTR leadership and the revolution in which Christianity came to be? If so, I hardly see any similarities whatsoever outside of the existence of conflict, albeit on an incredibly smaller scale in this instance.
Christianity 101 here:
– Matthew 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, “the Son” and the Holy Spirit..
Does C5 adhere to or conflict with this fundamental directive? Wouldnt it have gone much smoother for Peter or Paul in this life had they founded the churches without conflicting with their existing worship of gods? Why did the apostles feel the need to rebuke them on such things, that we no longer have this need today?
How many instances in the Old Testament were there of Israelites trying to combine other religions with their own? What was pleasing to God about the golden calf? What was God’s reaction to the combination of Baal worship with Judaism? Do you really feel such things are okay now that werent back then? Is God just more enlightened, in your sense, about combining religions?
The New Testament is littered with passages about preaching “with boldness” about “Jesus Christ”. C5 is about resisting any form of boldness in mission while denying Jesus Christ. This is wrong on so many levels that it shouldnt require debate.
Galations 1
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all.
Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
10Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Deut 4:2
You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.
Prov 30: 5,6 Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
Rev 22:18 If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life..
—-
Matt 10:33 Whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven
Mark 8:38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.
—-
What fate do you suppose awaits those who are altering the scriptures to bridge the gap between Christianity and Islam? Does C5 show boldness or being ashamed and denying Jesus as the Christ?
Your simply posting versus from the bible. They explain nothing about my original point about how slanderous and conspiratorial the nature of certain accusations were against the Lenz’s.
Here are some other versus you may want to consider and please if you can resonate how any thing from this book can really be taken as “ultimate truth”, please enlighten me!….
We should fear God (Matthew 10:28)
We should love God (Matthew 22:37)
There is no fear in love (1 John 4:18)
“Jacob said, ‘I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.'” (Genesis 32:30)
“No man hath seen God at any time.” (John 1:18)
Exodus[22:29] … “The first-born of your sons you shall give to me. You shall do likewise with your oxen and with your sheep: seven days it shall be with its dam; on the eighth day you shall give it to me.”
All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9
since when is confronting sin “slander”? If that were the case, Jesus and the apostles would have been in a whole heap of trouble? Seems to me the offender was contacted first, then the elders, then the congregation.. in that order. Did she begin with gossip or confrontation? Do you feel its wrong to confront sin?
Did CtR or did they not hold the C5 discussions? If the answer to that is “yes”, then you are best to do some really careful investigation before you say more.
Based on your criteria, what kind of confrontation of sin would be acceptable to you? How would you define this to occur?
Seems like you are trying to combine 2 separate issues: “is Joie receiving true inspired word from God?” and “is CtR being slandered”
On the first issue, you seem to be the one accusing her in public about giving false testimony. So, either you have the goods on her as a liar or you are presenting false testimony. Claiming visions cannot be in and of itself a lie unless you want to discount practically the entire Bible. To use that alone as proof is very shaky ground.
To slander someone means you are lying about them. If I murder someone, nobody will be slanderous by calling me a murderer. No matter how much you may like the Lenzes, if they are part of C5 (and it appears pretty clearly to be the case), then by definition everyone can call this out as frequently as they wish without being slanderous.
Do you agree that CtR supports C5 in any way? If true, they are supporting something that is clearly heresy, and you would be better off re-examining your stance on all of this, unless your point is that the Bible means nothing to you.
Okay, I do see now that you are coming from the assumption that the Bible is incorrect. Joie’s take is that CtR leaders were sinning, but you dont care about the Bible to begin with. This does not invalid her stance, since the Lenzes claim authority based on the Bible. If this were some random atheist acting this way, it would have been easy to ignore. But this is a supposed Biblical-based leader.
I will “enlighten you” since you ask:
We should fear God (Matthew 10:28)
We should love God (Matthew 22:37)
There is no fear in love (1 John 4:18)
simple logic here:
We should appreciate our wives
We should discuss with our wives
Do you think discussion and appreciation are the same or cant conflict? This is simple deductive reasoning here.. Beyond that, you may want to look at the original untranslated context of “fear”
These verses have zero contradiction, if that is what you are implying.
What is the context of “seeing God”? Moses saw God through the burning bush. Jacob wrestled with an angel and believed he had seen God. Based on prior history, you can assume he did not have a close religious spiritual guidance (tricking his father for the birthright and not trusting God). I mean, here is a guy who just got done wrestling all night with an angel. Do you think he understands what is going on?
This wasnt the only time in the Bible this occurred. Manoah was visited by the “Angel of the Lord” and was terrified because he too, apparently, had just seen God.
These men felt they saw God, and claimed such. If you saw a mystical creature as described, could it be possible for you to think it’s actually God? If you said “this is surely God!” would people be lying by claiming you said this?
Giving the firstborn son, I believe, refers to circumcision. The rest is sacrifice. Nothing to see here.
The Law is perfect and demanding, and meant to remind people of their wrongdoings. It is not our place to judge God’s Law based on our relative perception based on humanistic comparisons.
Not sure how you seemed to miss the point but let me break it down… Jim Wallis is presenting himself as an Evangelical Christian. By doctrine, Evangelical Christians believe that salvation is personal, not corporate, sin is personal, not corporate, repentance is personal, not corporate. Jim Wallis does not. Those fundamental beliefs spew out into other doctrines like what is sin and what is not. E.C.’s would say that abortion and homosexuality is sin. Wallis would maybe say that he personally believes this but would not say that it’s for everyone. He is presenting a gospel for the society not for the man. This is not orthodox teaching. When Bob Lenz pays him to speak at a venue as large as Lifest and sell his wares there as well then Bob is also supporting those teachings and doing so in a cloak of Evangelical Christianity. This is wrong. People in the Church who see this go, and have went to Bob. He refused to put Wallis aside or to even qualify that his teachings are off in part. So, when he doesn’t conform to Evangelical teachings then the church must stand up publicly and tell the folks who are not aware. This process is a directive in scripture. It has nothing to do with slander or a vendetta or meanness in any way. It is an act of love for the Body and for Christ. See Jude 3.
When a known atheist begins to write articles and comments in the local media supporting this false teacher the Body of Christ needs to take a serious look at why. And begin to pray about the realization that the enemy just may be up to something in the region with seeking to infiltrate the true Gospel of Jesus Christ with false teaching. To proclaim these things to the Church and those seeking the truth is an act of being like a watchman on the wall. When you see danger coming you need to yell out. To stand behind the walls and yell back at the watchman that you think he, or in this case she, is just calling out danger because she is mad for some unknown reason at the people bringing the danger, is nothing short of ludicrous. We, in the Church, are commanded to play by the rules. If you come from outside of the church and debate the rules you wont get anywhere because you are missing the entire point. We play by the rules because they have been given to us by a loving God who is very much alive and active in His Church. We love Him and understand that He has a plan in this world that involves the glory of Jesus Christ. Our lives become lost in that very goal. And gladly, because we find real life in that loss. It’s about Jesus. If it’s simply not about Jesus for you then you wont get it. Repentance of the Lordship of your life is the only way to even begin to be able to see.
To Robin’s comment up under number 5.:
It’s been a bit strange here the past two days. I have been praying about why the Lord keeps bringing people to me from CTR repeating the same lie: that I applied for some unknown job at CTR and am so freaked out and mad that I didn’t get it that I have taken on a decade long crusade to attack the family.
How anyone can believe such a bizarre accusation is beyond me. One. I never applied for a job at CTR and Two. Even if I had why would I wait over seven years and put at rick my job and reputation to publicly attack them by saying God was speaking to me? It just doesn’t make rational sense.
The people from CTR that I have spoken to most recently, after mentioning the same lie, said that they dismissed everything they heard that I was saying afterwords because of it. They also said that they believed it because it was their Pastor telling it and that they were not aware that so much time had passed between my families attendance and the prophecies.
So for the record, for those of you who are eating that very weird lie, please ask who ever is telling it to you what position I was applying for and who got the job instead of me. If they answer, which I am almost certain they will not because there is no answer, 🙂 let me know because I am really curious to hear what would be said.
The problem with trying to correct all the lies is that then the focus becomes me and not the point.
The point is~ headship.
The point is~ are the prophecies true regardless of who gave them.
The point is~ have you asked God to reveal the truth to you and then what does He want you to do about it.
Hello everyone,
I have kind of been following this blog from Texas where we re-located from the Fox Valley in August. While I did not agree with Life Promotions decision to bring Jim Wallis to Lifest, and did not attend this year for that very reason, I believe that this battle back and forth between these 2 organizations has got to stop. THIS is what Satan wants, a church divided. Fighting and arguing among members. I am not saying to agree or disagree with either side in this issue. I have prayed and sought the Lord and I have to answer to Him in what I do. I don’t think those who are name calling and “bashing” others on either side of this are right. I think God is saddened and the Holy Spirit grieved over this whole thing. I think Satan is rejoicing at the situation and it appears both sides have LOST and he has WON.
I am praying for CTR to be the church she was called to be. To be light and salt to the Valley and to not compromise. I am praying for Joie to be faithful to the call God has placed on her life. There will be disagreements between people, but both sides believe esentially the same things in regards to the BIG issues:
The trinity, virgin birth, crucifixion, death, and resurrection on the 3rd day. These are the issues that will make or break a Christian. The other things will not. I think it is the job of the Holy Spirit to convict people, and not ours. We are to do ALL things in LOVE….
Christine~ I don’t know if you realize this but you are contradicting yourself. Let me suggest something. Take a half an hour and your Bible and go before the Lord and ask Him to show you if what is going on here with me rebuking and exposing the false teachings being housed at CTR is in fact what you paint it to be in your post. Name calling and Bashing as you put it.
Can you tell me what name I have called anyone at CTR and how I have bashed them? I’m not sure how you define bashing but prophesying and exposing false teaching to the public is biblical and I am hoping that you can see the difference between the two. Can you explain in more detail what you are thinking you are seeing?
About the “Big” issues being enough. Take some more time and read through the Book of Galatians. Notice how Paul is publicly rebuking Peter for not sitting with the uncircumcised Christians. Note how he speaks to Peter about this and how serious he sees this “not Big” issue. And keep in mind that even though it seems mean it is actually an act of love, and an act of pointing out sin as you have claimed is the work of the Spirit (implying I think, that we are not to point out sin.)
Not allowing Christ to be the Head of the Church I find to be much more serious than even moving back to some of the Old Covenant ‘stuff’ as Peter is doing in Galatians. Of all the prophecies that I have given about CTR they all center around that one issue, not allowing Christ to be the head. That is not something I saw personally, nor felt the sting of. I had been gone from CTR for over seven years before the Prophesies came. But it was something that God revealed and asked me to tell Bill and then explain that if he repented the Spirit of God would flood the Church like never before. But he chose not to repent. And as you can see in scripture many times what God does when He calls those He loves to repent and they do not. And somehow Christine, even that is love.
Hope that clears things up.
Thanks for your response Joie,
Maybe “bashing” was the wrong word…hmmmm..how to explain what I am seeing. I used to attend CTR, but ended up leaving there to worship elsewhere as I did not agree with things that were going on there. That being said, I did not make a public display of my leaving and why. I do have a problem with prophecy or with confronting someone in sin using the biblical methods, or of exposing someone in sin. BUT…..I do think that once we have confronted those we feel are in sin (in love) we need to LET IT GO and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting. That is not our job. By continuing to keep bringing these things up, we continue the division and do not allow the Holy Spirit to do his work. We get in the way. I think that MAY be happening here. Maybe you would want to consider being in prayer and even fasting over the situation and asking the Holy Spirit to intervene and convict those who are in sin. Just a thought. I have talked to you one on one a few times via Facebook and I do respect you. I just feel God does not want this to continue as it is…..
OOps! It was supposed to say I DO NOT have a problem with prophecy and attend a church which practices it….
YES! Satan wants a church divided and JESUS wants His church UNITED under TRUTH not united under lies!!!! That’s the key and if you’ve read the book of REVELATION you know that He VIOLENTLY attacks everything that hinders LOVE and TRUTH and JUSTICE on the earth when He returns…It’s part of who He is…He’s not just the God of lovey dovey feelings…and I rejoice that He isn’t because We are at war SAINTS..not with people, but with our enemy…and we need a MIGHTY GENERAL to lead us in this battle. Do not be deceived Jesus is MIGHTY and a FIGHTER when it comes to defending the TRUTH of who He is! So why do we cringe when it comes time to stand and defend truth WITH HIM??? Why are we so timid and INSIST on “unity” at the expense of TRUTH??? I, myself, get sucked into this thinking and it wreaks of deception. What does this have to do with the Wallis issue or CTR or Joie or the FOX Valley??? EVERYTHING (IMHO). The way I see it there is a war going on for all of the souls in that Valley and the Holy Spirit is speaking. He is speaking out against DECEPTION (not people) and He is giving battle strategies to all those who have an ear to hear. It’s not about attacking one another – it’s about attacking the lies the enemy is spreading. Human pride makes things personal. It’s only personal on the heart level. What or rather WHO are you letting rule your heart? What is the truth according to THE WORD here? Are we following TRUTH or EMOTION? Lord help us to have a FULL revelation of YOUR TRUTH as well as who You are. The ULTIMATE Romancer and the ULTIMATE warrior because they are NOT in contradiction to one another in YOU and they do NOT have to be in contradiction inside of US! Prepare your BRIDE that we might be ready to stand and fight with YOU!!!! AMEN
I agree whole heartedly with you Emily! But when do we stop and allow the Holy Spirit to work? At what point do WE stop taking matters into our hands and get out of God’s way…that is what I am trying to get at. Exposing is exposing and there are times when that needs to be done…but once we have done OUR part, we need to allow the Holy Spirit to do HIS part…and he will! God is faithful!
Christine~ If you will take a minute to ask the Holy Spirit about this I believe He will show you. With that being said, can you be a bit more specific with what you are seeing as “taking matters into my own hands”?
I think someone’s FEELINGS about this will greatly depend on their view of the motivation and benefits for “exposing”. I view exposing as a MERCIFUL act giving the sinner a chance to repent. WHen God STOPS speaking/exposing I get nervous…because that, to me, signifies His judgements are about to be released. But there is a scripture that says God will not contend with man forever…so at some point He does stop. I guess the only way to stay clear in conscience when speaking out is to stay sensitive to the Holy Spirit and when He says STOP you stop…otherwise continue to speak out because you never know who you might touch with the truth…especially in cases like this one where the individuals in these prophecies are not the focus anymore, it’s the MANY souls that hang in the balance if they believe false doctrine. Those lies ROB them of the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and all the blessings contained therein! There is VIOLENCE being done to the body when it is deceived and Jesus wills us to stand against that INJUSTICE!!!! We are His BRIDE and He is JEALOUS for us…He will not stand by and let us be treated in such a way…He will do whatever He can to show us the TRUTH without violating our FREEWILL. So when do we stop exposing??? I hope on the DAY OF HIS RETURN!!!! I want as many standing with me on that day as possible!!!! Those are just my initial thoughts…anyone else???
I agree with you Emily. I don’t need to say any thing else but good job.
There is so much happening this month that I can hardly keep up. Keep an eye out for the next newsletter because it should be interesting.
The prophecies were about ‘not allowing Christ to be the head’ and if CTR would not repent then the enemy would be loosed on their congregation and it would eventually split and fall. With that being said, more prophesies came about Islam, Social Justice and sin with the children. Then as those things came to pass and CTR began to promote false teaching the mandate changed a bit. Addressing heresy is a bit different from prophesying that it will come. Okay, so I tell folks three false teachings/heresies will hit the valley. As they come through CTR into the Valley now it’s NOT time to ‘take convicting into my own hands’ but to take on heresy as we are directed in scripture. To expose, teach, rebuke, and let the Church know about it so that they can protect themselves and their children. Much of what you are seeing now, Christine, is me addressing heresy that CTR is promoting because Christ is not the head and they were not wise enough without the Spirit to see it.
Does that make sense?
Amen Emily!
Joie,
What you are saying makes sense. I guess I am not getting across what I am trying to say. It seems you and Emily think I do not believe in exposing sin. That is not true. I DO believe in it (done correctly). But even when Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and Saducees, he called them out and then let it go. He did not continue to bring his truths out over and over again to the same set of people. It is out job to call out sin and it is the Holy Spirit’s job to change the heart and convict. I think the more we continue to to reproach these people without giving the Holy Spirit time to do his work, the more we put them on the defensive and cause thier hearts to be hardened. We need to learn to step back and trust that God is sovereign and wills that NONE should perish. If the Holy Spirit convicts people, but they still do not turn from thier wicked ways, then you have done your part and so has the HS and the people care choosing to live in total rebellion and will be judged accordingly.
Was that clearer on my position…which I also think is biblical…..
Christine – I know you don’t know me, but I promise you I made no judgements about you whatsoever. You had messaged that you TOTALLY agreed with me and I didn’t know if that included the part where I said “I get sucked into that thinking, too and it wreaks of deception” or not. And so, just in case,because I believe you are a sister in Christ and are EARNESTLY seeking God’s heart – I shared the testimony/revelation of what the LORD showed ME about exposing sin – that it’s merciful. Does that help? I didn’t think you had a problem exposing sin.
But to reply to your post – I 100% agree that it is the Holy Spirit’s job to convict and if this was just about ONE issue I would say you can’t beat a dead horse and all this needs to STOP…but like Joie said this is really about several different issues. And when I look at it, the fact that it just happens to still involve the same ministry is sad, but not surprising. It makes sense doesn’t it??? If there is an open door there, of course the enemy will use it, right?
I’m just a person. I am not THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGE who KNOWS the hearts of everyone involved intimately. And so, unless God speaks to me directly to speak out about a person or organization I STICK TO THE WORD ONLY. Everything else I leave alone to the prophets and pastors and anyone else Go
oops…hit submit in mid-type…anyway…I was just going to finish by sayin I leave it to the prophets, pastors and anyone else God speaks to about it. I’m just grateful for prophecies and revelation that help to steer us away from deception. Things are going to get messy as the time of His return draws near. And I’m sure you know “even the elect will be deceived”. For me, it’s one thing to be lost and never come to KNOW the Truth that’s terrible enough…it’s so much more UNJUST to have KNOWN the truth and have Satan steal it back through deception…robbing once again from the Bride. So my cry unto the LORD is JUSTICE!!!! Open the eyes of Your Bride that SHE might SEE CLEARLY! JUSTICE!!!
A weird sort of phenomenon has been occurring as these prophecies have gone out, people are so apt to get down right nasty and confront me in public for confronting CTR in public. Like somehow confronting sin and addressing heresy is far more sinful than the sin. Like you Christine, I believe by your posts that you are a Christian and are moved by conviction, but why this somewhat aggressive first post because you felt I needed to back off, and yet nothing to CTR who is housing heresy, slamming and actually lying about me, and yeah a bunch of other rebukeable issues. Can you see the disconnect? It’s as if the culturally correct leave everyone be in their own sin idea has become one of, if not the most serious sin to break. I wonder why that is and why folks can’t seem to see it. Thoughts? Sorry this jarbbely I am in a rush and was just wondering out loud.
Joie,
I believe you have been given these messages and I know CTR has done things wrong. I know there have been lies and rumors, etc. I also do not say you need to “back off” on new issues being shown to you. What I am sensing (and I DO have the gift of discernment, for whatever that is worth) that things may quickly get out of control if we do not allow the Holy Spirit to work and get out of his way. I don’t know how to any better explain what I am feeling and sensing and it is hard to do in print. I believe your heart is in the right place and I do not think you are malicious in any way. I am just saying please be careful….be sure you are not taking matters into your own hands once you have prophecied. As for CTR and me not saying anything about them, I did say that I felt in my spirit they were doing things I could not agree with. We (my hubby and I) have gone to the leadership there and told them of our concerns. I do not think this is the proper channel to air that stuff. This is your blog and not CTR’s. If the roles were reversed, I would not be bringing up anything I disagreed with concerning you, on their blog. Does that make sense? I also believe that there are many people in CTR that love the Lord….my goal is to be obedient to the Lord and what the Holy Spirit says. I may not always do it well…but I do earnestly seek Him in all things…..
Christine~ I understand what you’re saying. I agree with almost all of it. I will seriously take your admonition to be careful and will be very careful to pray about each step. I want you to know that a number of people have been praying for me every week and more that I am very careful and also discerning the messages and the efforts to expose and so on. With that being said I want you to know that even if a person does it right a 100 times I totally believe they still desperately need the Headship of Christ, humility, and an ever present awareness that we are vulnerable to the devil and the flesh and need the leading of the Holy Spirit. So~ Thank you and I hear you and I will be praying about your comments. Please let me know if you get a check about something specific so I can be aware if and when I get off the mark. It’s easy to do. That’s why forgiveness is so awesome and why we all completely need the Body of Christ which is fit together for the purpose of glorifying Christ!
Dear Joie,
I have been and will be praying for you. I know it is hard to get off the “mark”. We do need to be in the Word and submissive to the will of God. Sometimes we get in our own way! It is a good thing God does have a sense of humor at times….I am glad I have been able to dialogue with you about this. Continue seeking the Lord and his will.
Blessings,
Christine
Hi Christine,
Two questions for you: Given your biblical discernment ability, is there a reason you chose to admonish Joie through an anonymous and public forum rather than directly? It seems to me that if the concern was about tone or approach over content, then that is something you would have taken directly to her first.
Second, if indeed Joie was alerted by the Spirit yet again to this same subject, what do you feel the proper course of action should have been on her part?
Let me first say to the person commenting right above me and speaking to me….you are condemning me for not using my name (which I did) and you won’t even use your first name. That kind of makes me wonder. I have recently moved out of state and cannot talk with Joie in person other than facebook. She is not a stranger to me although I do not know her well. The other reason I spoke to her on here, was that she had an open forum for discussion. This was not me starting a blog about her. In fact, I am in agreement with much of what she says and believe she is sincerely seeking the will of God. I was just cautioning her is all. Not condemning her. There is a difference.
I have been following the correspondence with interest and see written sometimes,the words “true christian”.My question is that it is very important to define this word because every one thinks he is a true christian be it Jehovas witness,catholics,Mormons,or born agains.I think it will be very educated and intellecutal discussion if we start on it.
Given the hundreds of thousands of Christines in the world, I dont see that as any less anonymous I guess. I could give my first name, but it wouldnt really make this any less anonymous (ok, there is one person that ‘might’ know who i am if I put my full name).
You characterize your stance as ‘cautioning’, compared to mine of ‘condemning’. Here are your words:
“I am not saying to agree or disagree with either side in this issue.”
“I don’t think those who are name calling and “bashing” others on either side of this are right”
“I did not make a public display of my leaving and why”
This was mine:
“Given your biblical discernment ability, is there a reason you chose to admonish Joie through an anonymous and public forum rather than directly? It seems to me that if the concern was about tone or approach over content, then that is something you would have taken directly to her first.”
I dont see how mine would be considered condemnation, while yours is caution. Regardless, if CtR as an institution is suffering from this conflict with Joie, I am not convinced that is a bad thing.
Again, I ask you:
– do you think your statements above were best addressed in public, and that was the appropriate biblical response?
– if joie was contacted again by the Spirit regarding this issue, what do you feel is the appropriate response?
Hey guys, Leave it go. The point isn’t how the messenger handled the message. The point is are the facts in the message correct and if they are then what do they mean? And then the question everyone seems to be so conveniently ignoring, “what is God asking of you?”
Dear Joie Pirkey,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination – Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this?
Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? – Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.
May the Lord have mercy on you and bring you to repentance.
“Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up. So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good to everyone, and especially to those who are of the household of faith” (Galatians 6.7-10).
Good hubby
You have put some points worth pondering but one point is sure that though teachings of Jesus(injeel)were true and guiding to people in his lifetime but sadly the bible today is not purely God’s word.It contains history,thoughts and twist of scribes,and sadly it keeps on changing.Just as each sect has its own bible and each bible has undergone multiple revisions the present editions are not the final ones either.I recommend you to read Quran,the unchanged word of God,preserved in the same language and same text as was given to Muhammad.True knowledge should be welcome especially when so much fake knowledge is around.You can read it on line.Best source is the deen show ,you can google it.
My Muslim friend, notice that the Son was sent. Jesus, the incarnate Son of God is God, and he loves you:
“For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God” (John 3.17).
May the Lord bring you to himself.
I’ve read portions of the Quran, and I appreciate your information. It’s strikingly similar to the Bibles themes and stories in so many ways. Islam and Christianity may share more in common than most other religions.
Doug,I am very honoured and pleased to hear the words”My muslim friend”.If we went like this eventually we could seek some common grounds.
You are right when you say”God sent Jesus to save the world rhough his teachings but the world of his time and the teachings of his time.Because after him his teachings started to change.But I can still agree with what you say if you can provide proofs.You qoute bible which is changed beyond recognition from what Jesus(Pbuh)taught and practiced.Jesus himself is not around.Church has gone so much away from the teachings of Jesus that it is sad.So what is the proof of truth of what you say.
God bless you and brings you to himself as well.
Truly.
Your muslim friend and logically faithful.
Doug,
You seem to be a good man and so is your wife.But that is not enough.you are afraid of truth it seems to me.If you so strongly believe what you have (christianity) is truth so why are you afraid of Islam or Quran.Why you don’t read Quran.It has a lot about Jesus and Mary in it.As a matter of back the only divine book which has a full chapter on Mary.If the writer of this book was Muhammad as is said he most asuredly would have put a chapter instead for his wife,or daughter.Think about it.Reading Quran will only equip you with enough knowledge first hand to be able to talk with muslims confidently.That you as a cleric must be able to.But if you are afraid of this truth then you better think your position again.
Doug and Joie,I want to share with you the most auspices occassion and religious celebrations of Muslims world over.,i.e.today as it is called Eid ul Adha and it means the celebration in acknowledgement of sacrifice gesture that Abraham did on the command of God when he was told to sacrifice his only son that he had gotten at such an old age,ie Ismael.This day muslims celebrate by sacrificing lamb world over and feast on it,the holiday continues for 3 days.The other great relgious holiday comes at the end of month of fasting.,something that all messengers of ALlah practiced and preached.These two haolidays are the biggest in Islamic calender.
Your point that you mentioned earlier that Jesus said”Before Abraham is I am” needs to be seen in depth in context with that time ,that envoirnment because surely those times can’t be compared with normal peaceful times.Jesus said I came to revive the law.He did precisely that and he made many enemies,i.e.Jews and their Rabbis who had their own interpretation and practices and who resisted and resented any attempt to remind them of their corruption.So they ganged up with the Govt and started a vicious persecution campaign against him.On the other hand Jesus was a Rabbi a teacher and more than that a messemger of God who lost no chance to teach gospel to those who listened to remind them how a certain teaching or practice of Jews had been changed as corrupted form of Torah.In the process when confronted by Jews ready and looking to hurt him he sometimes used parables, sometimes spoke in ambigous terms.This is the teaching of Islam also and of other Abrahamic faith that Allah created all souls and got them in front of him up in heavens but the souls didn’t come on earth together ,rather they can in sequence.So when he said to Jews “Before Abraham is I am” He meant also to remind them that I was like any other soul created before Abraham or any one came to ground.Or he could have meant also that now, i.e that particular time He and his teachings are to be given preference as he is reviving the law,he is sorting out deviations and corruption from the law.SO he probably chides Jews by telling them why are you hiding behind Abraham.Or that I am here now follow what I say.
Surprisingly while Jesus says I came to revive the law,he never says I came to die for the sins of mankind.