Serious Prophecy about Islam and Christianity for the Fox Valley
Aug 17, 2009
I was told in a vision on September 25, 2007 that “people in the Church,” somehow emphasis on leaders of the Church, were already beginning to publicly postulate that Islam was, in effect, quite like Christianity. They would proceed to give examples of our similarities and begin to, and He used the term, “pigeonhole”, Christianity with Islam. This in effect would erode the line of demarcation between Islam and Christianity and He said that He “hates this.” That has been the only time, to date, that the Lord has used the word hate in any visions He has given me.
He also, in that same vision, told me that the head of the Taliban was, and I quote, “the head of a snake.” He said that He would stomp that snake, killing its head. He told me that the name of the man who was the head of the Taliban was Omar.
In July of this year, 2009, the Lord began to speak to me again about this issue. He was simply giving me information about the Church and how they were whittling away the difference between the Biblical beliefs of Orthodox Christianity with elements of the Islam faith. He then asked me with some urgency to post the vision publicly and I did so on my Facebook Group titled Shouts of Joy Ministries.
In early August of this year, I was told by the Lord during a time of prayer with others to “Shout to the people the sins of the Church”. Immediately this issue of Christians merging Islam with Christianity came to mind but I had no idea specifically what the Lord was referring to and how He wanted me to do this.
The next day I was contacted by a member of the body of Christ here in the Fox Valley. The person was sharing information about a new movement sometimes called the “Insiders Movement” and the “Common Ground Movement” built on the C5 mission strategy of contextualization. C5 strategy promotes the idea that Muslims can remain in Islam and still be “Christ Followers” even as they continue to hold to Mohammed being God’s prophet and, for many, even holding that the Quran is a “holy book.” Obviously holding to Mohammed being God’s Prophet, when he denies Christ’s divinity, death and resurrection, compromises the core truths of our faith and blurs the line between Christianity and Islam. There are a number of ways this movement breaks down the line between us. I mention these two as examples only.
Elements of this movement are an example of how the Church is “pigeonholing” the Christian Faith with Islam. This is a sin and God hates it.
I am not writing to begin a debate with a movement or even to give my doctrinal opinions. I am simply conveying to you what the Lord has said about this broad issue and am asking you to pray about this; to consider it with great seriousness. I believe this will begin to affect many of us in the United States and in the Fox Valley in the very near future.
As I was praying about this issue and how to confront it, the Lord brought something to mind. Some years ago in a prophecy given first for CTR and then expanded to the Fox Valley churches the Lord was rebuking us for not allowing Him to be the Head of the Church. In His specific definition He said this,
“You are not allowing Jesus to be the Head of the church. The church is His House. You are putting people into ministry that God is not putting into ministry. You are taking people out of ministry that God is calling into ministry. You are putting people out of the church that God is calling into the church. You are bringing people into the church that God is casting out of the church. If you repent of this the Holy Spirit will be loosed on the church and the enemy will be held back. If you do not repent the devil will be loosed on the church and the Holy Spirit will hold back.” (Bolding mine)
I believe that what the Lord is speaking to regarding the Islam/Christian issue refers directly to the bolded part above. “Bringing people into the Church that are not being brought in by the Lord” is, in effect not allowing Him to be the Head.
“Common Ground Conference” held in the Fox Valley
Pigeonholing Christianity with Islam
Aug 23, 2009
On August 17, 2009, I sent out a prophecy that the Lord gave me in September of 2007 that contained this statement, “leaders of the Church, were already beginning to publicly postulate that Islam was, in effect, quite like Christianity. They would proceed to give examples of our similarities and begin to, and He used the term, “pigeonhole”, Christianity with Islam. This in effect would erode the line of demarcation between Islam and Christianity and He said that He “hates this.”
On July 20, 2009, I posted this vision on my Shouts of Joy Ministries Facebook Group.
I didn’t know why, at the time, the Lord was pushing so urgently for me to get that vision posted, but in retrospect, I think that He wanted it posted before this non-biblical paradigm was introduced and taught in the Fox Valley.
As people in our region began to read these posted prophecies, I began to get a number of emails saying that Christ the Rock Community Church in Menasha, WI, was in fact hosting a “Common Ground” Conference on August 21, 2009. At the time the Lord began to speak to me about Islam, in 2007, I had no idea He would be referring to anyone in Wisconsin much less the Fox Valley. I was of the belief that my ministry in Rwanda and surrounding African countries would bring this issue to the forefront. But when I began to research the “Common Ground Movement” and what they postulated with the understanding that Christ the Rock was seemingly embracing this paradigm, I could see that those previous words were speaking to what is happening here and now.
We have an audio tape of the conference held at Christ the Rock this past Friday. I will post audio clips below of some of the quotes that brought me great concern. Many things stuck out as being biblically unfounded but my goal here is not to refute their teachings but to highlight that they are in fact “pigeonholing” Christianity with Islam; others can refute the basics of their paradigm in the blog.
Quotes from the “Jesus and Islam Conference” held at Christ the Rock this past weekend:
Example 1: Click link Play to hear audio and follow along to better understand what he is saying below
“Second thing, we really believe that the only way to be reconciled to God is through the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus is the only way. This is what He said in John 14, ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life. Nobody comes to the Father except by me.’ This is the same thing that they said in Acts chapter 4 that there is no name under heaven by which we must be saved, given what’s in Acts. So for us Jesus is the only way. Now, that may or may not mean that you have to change your religious identity.”
Example 2: Play to hear audio and follow along to better understand what he is saying below
“…meaning there’s a possibility; that we are going to walk through the Bible and talk about why this is true; there is a possibility that someone could consider themselves a Muslim and yet follow Jesus whole-heartedly and be born again.”
Example 3: Click link Play to hear audio and follow along to better understand what he is saying below – () added where text isn’t fully understandable
“It is something that is really unique in our day because, if you will, it’s fourteen-hundred years just between Christianity ‘n Islam; there’s been some cases (he); there have been (quite a few ways) that seem to be that God is radically at work amongst both the Christians and the Muslims drawing them together in His kingdom.”
***See Jay Smith’s full refutation of the “Common Ground Paradigm” here.***
Not only have the Christ the Rock missions leaders embraced this process of “pigeonholing” in hosting such a conference, and in effect have begun to teach it, I have also been informed that Janet Lenz has plans to meet with a Senator where she will address what they are seeking to do with the Muslims so that, and I quote, “His (the senator’s) purpose would be to take this information to the entire Muslim world.”
This subject of pigeonholing Christianity with Islam is very serious. It is spreading quickly and it is breaking down the line of demarcation between Christianity and Islam. God has said that He hates this. At many junctures as I attempt to write this article I find myself wanting to take up a theological debate regarding how what this movement is teaching is not biblically sound but God keeps bringing me back to tell you that He hates this. He wants you to hear His heart, to allow what He hates to impact you and your choices and your passions.
To those at Christ the Rock, be aware that your leaders are not allowing Christ to be the Head of the church, especially regarding this Islam/Christianity issue. As the original prophecy that I sent to the Christ the Rock Leadership in 2005 states,
“You are not allowing Jesus to be the Head of the church. The church is His House. You are putting people into ministry that God is not putting into ministry. You are taking people out of ministry that God is calling into ministry. You are putting people out of the church that God is calling into the church. You are bringing people into the church that God is casting out of the church.”
I believe that this issue is one that demands action. It is very serious and the Church needs to respond. One primary response would be to forward these sets of prophesies to everyone that you know who attends Christ the Rock and encourage them to demand from their leadership that they hold to the truth. Also we must agree together in prayer, that this paradigm of “pigeonholing” stops, and whatever the scheme the enemy has in doing this will be bound and ceases. Then we must pray for our leaders that they will seek the heart of God in order that they may do His will His way. In every circumstance may you seek to do what pleases the Father, obey with courage and boldness what He asks you to do, allowing Him to be the Head of His Church!
Jo,
Below is my response to the answer to the first question posed to the “Common Grounder” by Jay Smith. My words are green.
D.
“Insider: We [leaders representing the Common Ground, and John Travis] define “Insider” as “One who embraces Jesus, yet remains as a light in his ‘oikos’ (household) so that as many as possible might be saved” (Matt 5:15). “
Just from an exegetical point of view, they are being inconsistent with Scripture. Matthew 5.15 uses the word καιω (light) because it conveys the primary emphasis of keeping a thing burning (Bauer 396). To extend further the logic of their eisegetical usage of this verse I would ask, if the purpose of remaining in Islam is to be a light to Islam how does one expect light from a flame being deprived of its fuel? In a mosque, or even in a Muslim home, is a “believer” supplied the word of God, fuel for one’s lamp? Furthermore, doesn’t the incognito approach to living as a believer that the “insider” espouses contradict the logic of not placing a lamp under “the peck-measure (v. 15)” to effect visibility in the place? Also, the New Testament teaches that baptism in contradiction of “Insiderism”, typically a public expression of faith, is to be central to Christian practice. Finally, the Common Ground methodology as spoken of by the insider who responded to Jay Smith’s query has referenced a verse of Scripture whose immediate context runs antithetical to “insider evangelism”. Verse fourteen uses the imagery of a “city set on a hill”, a highly visible thing. Verse sixteen says “Let your light shine before men….” Εμπροσθεν (before, or, in front of) communicates the fact of being seen doing something. It is the same word Jesus used in Matthew 6.1 where he warns us not to “practice righteousness before men to be noticed by them….” Matthew’s use of this word intends to convey the idea of ‘visibility’, objective knowledge about something or someone by others.
I made these observations easily which begs the question why haven’t the Common Grounders?
Douglas
Joie,
You and I have discussed this before. This is a very serious issue. I am reminded once again that just because we carry the label “evangelical” doesn’t mean we are being responsive to the Lord. The fact that the C5 strategy allows one to maintain a profession of faith including the shahada which holds to Mohammad being God’s prophet is more than troubling. Mohammad’s message denies Christ’s divinity, death, burial and resurrection. Contextualizing the gospel is one thing. Compromising truth is another…and is, as you say, something God hates. Thanks for being faithful here.
Thanks guys for the posts. I just returned from Canada and need sleep but I’ll share some more of the emails tomorrow.
WOW! I just found this article on Muslim speakers bureau web site. So even President Obama is preaching this stuff. The wording is almost verbatim to what the Common Ground Conference people are preaching in our churches.
ISB welcomes Obama’s Call for a New Beginning
The Islamic Speakers Bureau of Atlanta (ISB) welcomes a new course for relations between U.S. and Muslim communities as set out in President Obama’s landmark speech in Cairo Thursday. The tone and focus of the visit and speech is a breath of fresh air and gives promise to the vision and mission of the ISB’s work for the last 8 years.
The president has eloquently acknowledged the long history and contributions of Muslims abroad and in the U.S. then offered a new beiginning “based on mutual interest and mutual respect, and one based upon the truth that America and Islam are not exclusive and need not be in competition. Instead, they overlap and share common principles, principles of justice and progress, tolerance and the dignity of all human beings,” the president said.
This is exactly that vision that has propelled much of the work of the ISB, an affiliate of Islamic Networks Group.
Those efforts aim to counter stereotypes and prejudice that have long born their bitter fruits, both to those who hold them, and to those that are a victim of them. It is also part of ISB’s core belief that is also reflected in Obama’s policy, that mutual understanding and respect brought about through dialogue and discourse can help promote peace and solve conflicts.
As the President emphasizes, “There must be a sustained effort to listen to each other, to learn from each other, to respect one another, and to seek common ground. As the Holy Quran tells us, Be conscious of God and speak always the truth.” It is telling that he emphasizes the importance in our dialogue that we include a truthful expression of the concerns we have with each other, rather than letting them fester within.
ISB appreciates the long missing recognition from our leader that will hopefully inform discussions that have for so long focused only on the negative, that – as he said, “the relationship between Islam and the West includes centuries of coexistence and co-operation.”
It is to shed light on this hidden history that inspires ISB speakers to deliver presentations on “Islamic Contributions to Civilization.”
But the President’s history lesson did not end there; he acknowledged too “that Islam has always been a part of America’s story. The first nation to recognize my country was Morocco. In signing the Treaty of Tripoli in 1796, our second President John Adams wrote, ‘The United States has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Muslims.’ And since our founding, American Muslims have enriched the United States. They have fought in our wars, served in government, stood for civil rights, started businesses, taught at our Universities, excelled in our sports arenas, won Nobel Prizes, built our tallest building, and lit the Olympic Torch. And when the first Muslim-American was recently elected to Congress, he took the oath to defend our Constitution using the same Holy Koran that one of our Founding Fathers – Thomas Jefferson – kept in his personal library.
This is the very story of Muslim history in America that ISB speakers relate many times a year when they deliver presentations on “Root of Muslims in the U.S.”
ISB hails President Obama’s emphasis on freedom of religion that has made this country from its founding a beacon of hope for the religiously oppressed. He is right in pointing out that at the same time it is incumbent upon Muslims to practice this same religious freedom and respect which is foundational in ISB’s interfaith work as based on the Qur’an’s principles or religious pluralism.
His call for equality for women balanced by his acknowledgement that women do not have to make the same choices as men to be equal, and his reference to the historical precedence of women heads of state in four Muslim-majority countries reflects the message of ISB’s popular presentation on “Women in Islam.”
The President puts forth the notion that ISB has long worked towards, that putting aside our differences and emphasizing our commonalities is the only way forward: “So long as our relationship is defined by our differences,” he said, “we will empower those who sow hatred rather than peace, those who promote conflict rather than the cooperation that can help all of our people achieve justice and prosperity. And this cycle of suspicion and discord must end.”
ISB hails his statement that emphasizes our commonalities and humanity: “… let there be no doubt, Islam is a part of America. And I believe that America holds within her the truth that regardless of race, religion, or station in life, all of us share common aspirations: to live in peace and security, to get an education and to work with dignity, to love our families, our communities, and our God. These things we share. This is the hope of all humanity.”
ISB members welcome this new era of dialogue, respect, and new relationship between all of the world’s people.
Joie,
It is interesting that the same “religion of peace” that these evangelicals who are, by their actions, denying the basic tenets of Christian faith and wanting to identify with, are killing their family members in “honor” killings, killing their family members who convert to Christianity, and killing and burning down churches all over the world. They are supporting an enemy which is the FALSE religion of Revelation which beheads brothers and sisters in Christ (Rev. 20:4), and which was warned about by Jesus in Mark 13:22 and Matt 7:15 and 24:24
Galatians 3:1 “O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?”
There truly IS a famine in the land for the Word of God. I knew we were in trouble right after the WTC and Pentagon terrorist attacks when the news media blamed the US and glorified those who practice Islam. I did not understand that these were the first birthpangs for Christ’s return at the time. These are going to be exciting times, it will be a time that the wheat will be used for God’s kingdom and will not be afraid, and the tares will show themselves, (like those who are espousing this accursed teaching).
Fear NOT for God is with us!
Ray
Hi Joie,
Is there a link to audio or anything from this conference?
Thanks,
AP
Quote from Jay Smith:
If the Insider proponents want to be held credible, they are going to have to take these interpretations and hold them up to public scrutiny, outside of the comfort of their conferences. I would suggest that they write up their interpretations of these verses in journals where bonafide Biblical scholars can assess whether they are indeed interpreting these scripture correctly. My impression is that they come to the scriptures with an agenda, and then look for those verses which they believe will back up or substantiate this agenda. This is unhelpful and perhaps even dishonest. Many cults have worked on that principle, do disastrous effect. I hope this is not the case here.
Having listened to a substantial portion of the recording of the conference, my hopes that this was something other than what I had heard it was supposed to be were dashed. This was a complete compromise of the gospel message. Encouraging believers to study to Quran because it is a “holy book” and encourage believers to accept Mohammad as a prophet of God (when he denies the divinity, death and resurrection of Jesus) is to deny the gospel itself. These things were clearly taught at the conference. In fact, each participant was given a Quran!! Are you kidding me! I thought we were supposed to be giving Muslims the Bible (and not just the Muslim compliant one that the Insider’s Movement promotes…which omits references to Jesus being the Son of God.) My heart breaks over this issue. I have no doubt that Jesus will hold those who promote such teaching accountable as He says in His word. There is no other way to describe this than as a spiritual abomination that breaks the heart of God. As a fellow Pastor here in the Valley, I am praying for discernment for those in the body of Christ at CTR and for repentance for those in leadership who promoted this conference with full knowledge of what would be taught.
Christians now thanking Allah
‘Islamic Antichrist’ author attacks church commitment to Ramadan
——————————————————————————–
Posted: August 24, 2009
9:01 pm Eastern
© 2009 WorldNetDaily
Leaders of the “emergent church” movement within evangelical Christianity are “observing” the Muslim month of Ramadan, writes the author of the bestselling new book, “The Islamic Antichrist,” which contends that the Beast of Revelation is most likely to emerge from within the Muslim world.
“This year, a group of “Emergent Christians,” led by one of the United States’ most influential pastors, Brian Mclaren have announced they will actually be ‘observing’ the Muslim holy month, along with a Muslim ‘partner,'” writes Joel Richardson in a WND commentary today. “Ramadan is the month that Muslims thank Allah, their god, for revealing the Kora to Muhammad, their prophet. On Mclaren’s personal blog, he recently announced his intentions: ‘We, as Christians, humbly seek to join Muslims in this observance of Ramadan as a God-honoring expression of peace, fellowship, and neighborliness.'”
We need to take a stand.
The Common Ground proponents of the “Insider” methodology are not merely utilizing dynamic equivalents of culture for facilitating evangelism and the transmission of biblical truth. As Christians they are actually modeling themselves contrary to the model of Christ in Scripture.
In the Gospel of Mark from chapter eight through chapter ten, Jesus three times foretold emphatically the death that awaited him. The first time he told it Peter rebuked him but Jesus thwarted the potential in Peter’s rebuke by stating in the hearing of the other disciples, “Get behind me, Satan!” (Mark 8.33 ESV). Peter, along with the others, had certain sensibilities and expectations for the Messiah that were royal in nature, triumphant, and what Jesus was saying about himself was unconscionable to Peter. The way of deliverance was the way of the cross, and the Roman occupation, as problematic as it was to Peter, was part of God’s sovereign plan of salvation. Jesus used a figure of speech that harkens back to his rebuke of Satan in the wilderness during the temptation to “pushback” Peter’s earthbound mentality (see Matthew 4.8-11).
Why would an Insider, why would the leadership of Christ the Rock Community Church, approve of a personal approach to Christian ministry that runs contrary to the personal approach by Jesus in the Bible? There is no place in Scripture that validates compromising Jesus nature or deviating from his methods. (He put on humanity, not our political and religious sensibilities.) We are not capable of fully imagining the ensuing catastrophe and defeat had Jesus acquiesced to Peter’s small perspective? It is one thing for Christians to empathize cross-culturally but it is entirely another to alter the truth about Jesus.
Christ the Rock Community Church has, by hosting the Common Ground conference, cooperated in the propagation of heresy.
Some questions no one else will ask, so I will:
1. Where did you get your information that this was a Common Ground Conference? (It wasn’t. You are either misinformed or purposely trying to stir up trouble. again)
2. Where did you get the recording? This was not a public event and no one gave permission to have this recorded. From the quality of your audio, it would appear someone hid a recorder in their purse or pocket. A sly and probably illegal thing to do.
it’s not illegal.
Hey Redflag,
“Common Grounders”, “Insiders”, or “C5 contextualization”, all are names given to the movement that profess that Muslims can remain being Muslim and be born again. There are other unbiblical tenets of this way of handling missions, those are not what I am speaking to. I am saying that God has told me that He hates it when Christians pigeonhole the faith with Islam, and that some leaders at CTR are engaging in this sin. Did the conference do this Redflag?
Also about recording, on the audio clip they say that
“for those of you who are recording this conference please use discretion with how you use it.” I would say that that is an obvious act of permission and so would any court.
What has happened to being like the Bereans and going to the Word of God and prayer to discern and find out if something is actually true and from Him? What happened to that?
About the first thing that you assume, saying that you will ask me these questions because no one else will, here you are very mistaken. Every time I have a vision I am asked by the leadership in my church to write it down or tape it so as to get it documented verbatim. Then they are scrutinized thoroughly. Are they biblical? Are they accurate? What is my interpretation and what was actually said? Every thing I write down from the Lord goes through many people praying, discerning, researching. I am asked many many questions every time. I am committed to this process because I believe that the Bible clearly spells out that a discerning process should occur every time a person believes they are hearing like I do from the Lord. I submit to my husbands discernment who has a degree in Christian Studies, to my Pastor who has his Masters in Divinity, to prayerful discerners who know me very well. The process is long and complicated and full of questions.
Please, for the sake of the Church in the Valley and for the leadership at CTR, and the Muslims they minister to, pray about this, ask about this, see what the Lord would have you do, that’s all I am asking.
ANY ORGANIZATION that teaches:
a. Muslims can remain Muslim but be “christ followers” and in fact should not convert to Christianity
b. the quran and Bible should both be read and used side by side
c. Muhammad did many wonderful things and the truth about Muhammad is not discussed
d. Jesus should be referred to as someone other than the Son of God because that is offensive
Is wrong, no matter what the name of the conference is.
Regarding the above post, the audio taken at CTR at last weekends conference confirms each point listed above.
Gossip…hummm. Second hand info…hummm. I’m sorry but it nullifies your biblical credibilty. Show me your work in the Muslim world; your call to missions and maybe I’d listen. I hear the words of a wounded, disenfranchised person. Sorry, but your surriptious attacks cause me to question your “prophetic” gift. If you want to come work with us in Iraq, you’re welcome.
What did Jesus say to the Samaritan woman about where to worship or about her false Samaritan belief system?
If you were in charge, she would have never heard the Gospel. Check Acts 15 as well. And, please end the gossip; a reprehensible sin before God.
Praying for your healing.
Ralph
How is it that Joie is “attacking”? God will deal with CTR as He sovereignly sees fit. If Joie is a fraud, then I guess CTR has absolutely nothing to worry about.
By the way….notice how Jesus didn’t beat around the bush with the Samaritan woman? He confronted her immediately on her sin vs 17, 18 and also told her that he was the Messiah during the same conversation. vs 26
Did he ask the Samaritan to become a Jew?
Of course Jesus confronts sin in us. But why did he avoid her questions of religion comparing Jews to Samaritans. I assume you done the research on Samaritanism. Why does Jesus only focus on her need to acknowledge Him as Messiah, while not addressing the false belief of Samaritans?
As for Joie’s motivations, I’m not as adept as she is in knowing other people’s hearts. Maybe that’s God’s perogative alone.
Ralph
He didn’t avoid the question at all…He said vs 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know, we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
LOL, no I’m most definitely not an expert in Samaritanism (didn’t even know there was such a word as that quite honestly)
Keep going in the text. It shows poor hermeneutics to pull out one sentence. Just think. If we were all out winning Muslims to Christ (my offer stands for anyone who wants to live in the Muslim world with us) then we wouldn’t have time to sit at home and find fault in others. Real fruit (scripturally speaking) always supercedes empty rhetoric.
Go share your faith today with a Muslim and let us all know how it goes.
Ralph,
First let me thank you whole heatedly for the work you mentioned in your post with the Muslims in Iraq. I cannot imagine the difficulty of being there as an ambassador of Christ and our prayers are with you.
In my work with the few Muslims that I have encountered I found that when sharing that Jesus has died for our sins, becoming the propitiation for our sins, and consequently the debt for our sins is paid to God, that that fact alone strikes a deep cord with Muslims. Also, with one Muslim girl in Rwanda that does some interpreting for us, two angels appeared to her outside her village in east Rwanda, and told her that Jesus was in fact God’s Son and that she was to follow him. She had to leave her family then because if they knew she had converted they would have to kill her. She was 16. She left everything she knew and went to Kigali where she found others who were following Christ.
I was speaking to Walt Kaiser, the Hebrew scholar, this past week, who also shared such stories of Muslim’s being converted through visions and dreams. That I find very exciting and a fun testimony to share. Those types of situations are obviously not the norm and we are as the body of Christ still called to share the gospel.
I want to take some time to pray about responding more to you Ralph because I find that I have so many thoughts about what you have said and I want to be sure that I am pleasing God and reaching out in love as I share what He wants me to share. I’ll be back later.
I can say that I believe that it is imperative for those who know theology to answer these questions well and in love.
Ralph,
Can you speak to these points that were postulated at the conference?
— teaching that Muslims don’t need to become Christians, but can remain Muslims and simply “discover Jesus” in Islam.
— teaching that these believers should continue to pray to Allah, as revealed by Mohammed.
–teaching that these believers who have “discovered Jesus” can continue to hold to the Muslim profession of faith, the Shahada, which says that there is no God but Allah and Mohammed is God’s prophet. (This in spite of the fact that Mohammed’s “revelation” of Jesus included the denial of His divinity, death, burial and resurrection.)
–teaching that the Quran is a book which these believers should continue to look to, along with the Bible, in order to “discover this Jesus.”
–teaching that God is equally drawing both Christians and Muslim’s, through their respective revelations, into the Kingdom of God.
–teaching that, in fact, Mohammed may be a true prophet of God (some think he is and some think he isn’t) and it is up to each conference participant to decide. (One quote highlighted in the workbook promoted that he was a true prophet of God. “My own judgment is that I see Muhammad as an authentic prophet of God, even though like other prophets after the time of our Lord, neither morally perfect nor doctrinally infallible.”)
–teaching conference participants to be careful in presenting Jesus as the “Son of God” as this would be offensive to Muslims.
Hello,
I popped over here because Joie has been mass emailing a lot of members and staff, and wanted to clear up a few things for those of you who read her blog.
Here is what Christ The Rock Church believes and teaches:
1. There is only One God, that always was and always will be, ever present in 3 divine persons; The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit.
2. We believe everything the Bible says about Jesus Christ. That He is The Son of God, The Son of Man, The Messiah, The Savior of the world, the Hope of the nations, The Lamb of God, The Lion of the tribe of Judah, The eternal I AM, The Prince of Peace, The ONLY mediator between God and man, The ONLY way to The Father, The ONLY way into the kingdom of God, The ONLY way to salvation and eternal life. He is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. He is The Prophet, Priest and King. His kingdom will have no end.
Anyone who wants to learn more about our beliefs is welcome to visit our web site at christtherock.org, or better yet come to our weekend services.
God’s peace.
Thank you for joining the conversation.
Can you address how CTR plans to proceed from the conference/seminar/meeting? Is CTR adopting the message and strategy posed at this conference as valid?
Your answers to these questions will surely help clear things up, more than what can be currently found on your website (as even this meeting couldn’t be located on your calendar of events).
Thanks CTR for your comment. Could you explain then what in the world Joie is talking about? Was there a conference/seminar last weekend held at CTR and if so, was any of her bullet points about the conference/seminar true in your opinion?
Thanks
Hi Joie,
Just a couple of questions real quick and then I’ll answer your questions. Were you at the conference or are you acting on second hand information? If you’re acting on second hand information then you are in a dubious position. In your “prophetic” gift (I don’t think prophets work based on heresay) you might want to ask God why he has tasked you to merely criticize a church that wants to reach Muslims when most churches don’t even care? What is the Great Comission? So if a church doesn’t care…their okay? Tell me the churches you know who are doing a Christ-like job at winning Muslims in your neighborhood? If they aren’t, then they have a real problem with Jesus’ command.
Wouldn’t your prophesy, really be against failing to fulfill the great comission?
It seems to me that Satan’s strategy would be to turn believers against belivers.
Let me know your thoughts.
Oh and real quick. Have you read the Qu’ran? I assume you have because you speak with authority. A couple of other books you might read are:
Building Bridges: Christianity and Islam by Fouad Elias Accad
Muslims, Christians, and Jesus: Gaining Understanding and Building Relationships by Carl Medearis
Both writers are evangelical Christians.
Can’t wait to hear from you
Why is everyone so silent?
Hey Ralph, I am sitting on my front porch listening to the storm. Beautiful!
Okay, first question, was I at the conference? No. I was given an audio of the entire conference and heard first hand everything the speakers said. I also have access to the workbook that was handed out and have done some research via the internet on the C5 Contextualization method for missions.
I think that most people would say that a recording of the conference would constitute first hand knowledge of what was said.
About the information impacting what I am saying prophetically, the prophecy regarding CTR not allowing Christ to be the Head- by bringing people into the Church that Christ was not bringing in- was told to me in 1999 and to the leadership of CTR beginning with Bill in 2001.
The prophecy regarding Pigeonholing Christianity with Islam was given to me in 2007 at which time I had no idea that CTR was ministering to Muslims. I knew they were in the camps but was not aware that the people there were Muslim.
This past July I was told to post the “Chrislam” prophecy publicly and then in early August was told to shout this sin publicly, also that it was CTR who was the Church, but I did not make the connection until a person attending CTR contacted me. (Posts and dates can be verified on Facebook Group Shouts of Joy Ministries and the SOJ Newsletters on the web site).
The actual information of what was said at the conference simply verified that the prophecy was true.
When you say, “Tell me the churches you know who are doing a Christ-like job at winning Muslims in your neighborhood? If they aren’t, then they have a real problem with Jesus’ command.”
I am of the belief that God calls individuals and churches to different missions. Some churches to Rwanda, some to China, some to the inner cities, and so on. I would have to agree with you in one respect, if a local church or any church really, isn’t actively reaching out to some people group through missions work then yes, I would say there was something unhealthy about that church. But surely you don’t believe that every church is to minister to Muslims. Also, the call itself does not justify the means by which we do our work. I have seen many called and anointed ministers doing missions in a very sinful way. That sin should be dealt with. If they actually espouse a method of missions that is unbiblical that also should be addressed. I believe that from a biblical perspective those issues should begin between the Lord and the person in charge. If that person refuses to bow to the will of God and come in line with scripture then someone who witnesses the ministry done in an unbiblical way should address it. If there still remains no repentance then the original person should have another witness and go public to rebuke that leader as we are told in I Timothy 5
“9Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.”
When this process does not work or God sees fit He sends a prophet.
You said, “It seems to me that Satan’s strategy would be to turn believers against belivers.”
I also believe that it is satan’s desire to turn believers against believers. I also believe that it is satan’s desire to have people focus on the messenger and not on the message even though we are told to check out prophecy and to hold to what is good. I also believe that the enemy is coaxing people to think that confrontation and calling people to repent is division and not from the Lord.
About having read the Quran, in it’s entirety, no. It is heresy and I don’t want anything to do with it. Parts of it, yes, because I want to understand why there is so much hate coming from the extremists.
About “Building Bridges: Christianity and Islam by Fouad Elias Accad” This man was quoted a number of times in the workbook that was handed out at the conference. This quote alone causes me to want to rebuke Accad and not read his work,
“As I’ve studied the Qu’ran for thirty years, I’ve found it overwhelmingly pro-Christ, pro-Christian, and pro-Bible.” See page 10.
From what I have read of the Qu’ran this statement is at best misguiding, and most likely very self serving because the Qu’ran denies the divinity of Jesus, His death and His resurrection. That is blasphemy.
About being silent, I have received a number of emails and phone calls from all over the country but I think that people are afraid to speak out, to take a public stand because in our culture now it is very politically incorrect to confront anyone. That’s just a thought. You can watch the site meter to see how many people are reading this though.
Now, will you answer this? Can you see how telling Muslims that they can be born again and remain Muslims is pigeonholing Christianity with Islam?
Oh the storm. Elijah heard the “still small voice” in the storm. Perhaps you might listen there. Elijah, in his depression (something you might consider) thought he was “the only one.” Yet God had others reserved for Himself. Hmmmm. Are there others beside us? A question Jesus rebuked His disciples about. “There are others of another fold.” Maybe you could enlighten me on these passages.
Sorry, so you have not read the Qu’ran? Is that correct? So our conversation is based on what? If you quote Fuad, then you must, in all honesty before God, understand his point. It’s called hermeneutics. Perhaps you could read Acts 17 and tell me how many times Paul quotes “pagan” literature in his evangelism to the Stoics and Epicureans. Why does he do that?
As for the Qu’ran, I do not believe it’s inspired in any way. However your “unread” understanding of what it says is completely wrong. (Really, don’t you hate when people make claims about the Bible having never read it…using your same justification…”it’s false so I can just ignorantly ignore (nice double negative) it.”
Actually, the Quran affirms everything we revere about Christ. You can read as follows:
Perspectives from the Al Qur’an
What the Al Qur’an says about Jesus
1. He was born without an earthly father
Sura 19:19-22; 27-31 (Mary)
19. He said: “Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son. 20. She said: “How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?” 21. He said: “So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, ‘that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us’:It is a matter (so) decreed.”
22. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.
27. At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: “O Mary! truly an amazing thing hast thou brought!
28. “O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!”
29. But she pointed to the babe. They said: “How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?” 30. He said: “I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; 31. “And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
Sura 21:91 (The Prophets)
91. And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples.
Sura 3:45-47 (The House of ‘Imran)
45. Behold! the angels said: “O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.
46. “He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous.”
47. She said: “O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?” He said: “Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, ‘Be,’ and it is!
2. He is called a “miraculous sign” and “a mercy” from Allah
Sura 21:91 (The Prophets)
91. And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for all peoples.
Sura 19:21 (Mary)
21. He said: “So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, ‘that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us’:It is a matter (so) decreed.”
Sura 3:55 (The House of ‘Imran)
55. Behold! Allah said: “O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
3. He is “most illustrious in this world and the world to come”
Sura 3:45 (The House of ‘Imran)
45. Behold! the angels said: “O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.
4. He is called Allah’s (God’s) Word
Sura 4:171 (Women)
171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
Sura 3:39 (The House of ‘Imran)
39. While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him: “(Allah) doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya, witnessing the truth of a Word from Allah, and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a prophet,- of the (goodly) company of the righteous.”
[Explanation: This is the Qur’anic account of the Angel of the Lord appearing to Zakariya (Zacharias) announcing the upcoming birth of Yahya (John the Baptist). The verse says that John will be a witness for the truth of a Word from Allah (Jesus).
Sura 3:45 (The House of ‘Imran)
45. Behold! the angels said: “O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.
5. Jesus is the “Straight Way” (Musta-qiim)
Sura 43:61 (Ornaments of Gold, Luxury)
61. And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: this is a Straight Way.
Sura 3:174,175 (Women)
174. O mankind! verily there hath come to you a convincing proof from your Lord: For We have sent unto you a light (that is) manifest.
175. Then those who believe in Allah, and hold fast to Him,- soon will He admit them to mercy and grace from Himself, and guide them to Himself by a straight way.
6. Jesus healed the blind and raised the dead
Sura 3:49 (The House of ‘Imran)
49. “And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): “‘I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah.s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah.s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
Sura 5:110 (The Table)
110. Then will Allah say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave.
So what if the Qu’ran is saying that all people must come through Christ in order to enter the Kingdom of God? Because we believe John 14:6 and that the Bible is the only inspired Word of God and that Jesus is the only way unto salvation.
So just a thought. What if, as you work through your own inner healing issues, you consider that maybe the great God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, somehow, made a way for Muslims to know Him. Apart from you, maybe He considered them.
I think that perhaps you need to go to God’s word and read apart from your agenda. Maybe God has thought more than you have. I had to do that. It’s really a pride issue, I think.
Rather than talk about all this. Maybe you could use your blog to talk about your own struggles. You know, the real stuff…marriage…raising kids to follow Christ in the US. I have had the benefit of my kids growing up on the field. They are grown and are back in the Middle East. What do your kids want to do?
My wife and I tried hard to prevent our kids from just sitting in the USA and critizing others. How are you doing that?
That would be an awesome blog. Could you tell us, with the same authority you use in criticizing missions approaches, how to make our kids long to live among Muslims. You know, the Great Comission and all that.
I can’t wait to hear your insights.
I’m sure all your readers would love to know how to make their kids want to live in the Muslim world.
You’re up!
Come on bloggers…let’s make this a great site.
Ralph,
I suppose you read the book of mormon as well, and the books of the Jehovah’s witnesses. I suppose that CTR has invited them into their church for understanding as well, I suppose that CTR has conferences to tell mormons and Jehovah’s witnesses to stay in their cults as well. I suppose they are preparing new works for those in scientology, shintoism, taoism, etc.
Joie goes to Africa several times a year, she and her family have invested much time helping the orphans there and was instrumental in getting one of those who suffered in the genocide with his story to be published.
You seem to be very invested in this, so much so that you are falsely accusing a sister in Christ with things you have no idea about. She has the recording, she has the workbook, that is NOT second hand knowledge. You quote the koran, nowhere in those quotes does it say that Jesus is God, in fact it states the trinity is a lie, that is BLASPHEMY, and you were quoting it to support your cause, it is a work of SATAN, and you are quoting from it.
When I work with those in cults, I do not use their works, I use the Bible, why, it will not come back void. It is the power of GOD for salvation, it is used for doctrine, reproof and instruction in righteousness. NO WHERE ARE WE TOLD IN SCRIPTURE TO LEAVEN IT with satanic works.
As for the direct quote from the “secret”(Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. AND Be sure, your sin will find you out.)”…there have been (quite a few ways) that seem to be that God is radically at work amongst both the Christians and the Muslims drawing them together in His kingdom.” But what does the Bible say? “Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.” and what did Jesus say? “But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.”
As far as a churches statement of faith is concerned, it is just writing if what is done inside goes against it’s statement.
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
The great turning away from the truth has indeed come.
BTW, I witnessed to Muslims in Turkey, and I did not use the devil or should I say prince of Persia inspired koran to do it.
May God grant you a love for HIS word.
Ray
Ralph, Are you in Iraq or are you in the states now? Were you at the conference? Just curious.
I think that what you are omitting from the Q’uran is also very important here.
But what the Q’uran says, although important to you and your ministry to Muslims, is not important to what I am saying. I am not giving you my opinion of the methodology, I am simply telling you what God has told me.
I don’t need to have read the book to tell people what God has told me. I don’t need to refute the paradigm. I simply need to obey and tell people as best I am able what God has asked me to say. then you, meaning the body of Christ, need to discern those statements as they are, disregarding me.
Ralph, do you believe that prophets still get words from God for the Church today? Just curious.
I can’t tell by your post but you are sounding a bit sarcastic Ralph. And for some reason it’s funny to me. Thanks for asking about my children. They are doing great and serving God and looking to go into ministry actually. As far as my marriage goes, I really like Douglas and so does everyone who knows him. And he’s cute. 🙂
In regards to encouraging your children to live amoung the Muslim well that would be something that I would let to the Lord.
Ralph,
I think that you might find this interesting:
http://shoutsofjoyministries.com/rwanda/calltoafrica.shtml
Regarding post #28.
To everyone reading this blog. Please be in prayer and think twice before reading the Quran. It is most definitely not inspired by God-even ralph admits this, but you need to ask youself who ultimately inspired it? Who inspired Muhammad? Supposedly Gabriel? Even Muhammad himself admitted that he believed he was being inspired by satan at one point.
Ralph, a couple questions for you:
What exactly is the Ka’aba?
What is “The Shirk”?
Wow! So much response! Awesome! Joie, your blog is popping. Like the movie “Juie and Julia.” The problem with blogs is that you just kind of preach to the choir. Not your fault.
So great to hear about your family. That’s awesome. I apologize for any sense of sarcasm…ahh the curse of computer conversations.
I love your question about “shirk”…very well done. Actually “shirk” is the idea of attaching a partner to God. You see Muslins believe that we as Christians believe that God partnered with Mary to produce Jesus. Of course this is false, but the Arabic translation of the Bible uses the phrase “ibin Allah” about Jesus. The word “ibin” in Arabic means “the product of a sexual relationship.” So, if I say to a Muslim that Jesus is the Son of God, which is true, they hear something other than what I mean.
It’s a tough question. The Qu’ran asserts that Jesus is the Divine Word of God and the Messiah before whom all of us must stand in judgement. Furthermore it claims that Jesus is the only way to God. While I don’t believe it is inspired in any way, it can be used to point Muslims to the Bible, and to true faith in Christ. I’m saying this from 20 years in the Muslim world. We have seen many Muslims come to faith in Christ. They are amazing witnesses.
My wife and I live in the Middle East.
As to your question about my belief in the “prophetic word” today; I do believe in this. However, the penalty from God against a less than 100% prophecy is serious. I don’t think Daniel, Jeremiah, etc. said “I just say what I heard from God and then dissassociate myself from the outcome.”
Be cautious with this gift. It’s a great gift. Just be careful in weilding it. Make sure you have the right target.
And hey, Joie, do a quick study of all the pagan literature used in the Bible. Espcially, Paul. Somehow the inspired writers felt like they could take “unredeemed” writings and use them for the advancement of the Kingdom. Let me know…well all of your bloggers…the results of that study.
Hey, I’m going to respond to Ray now. It has nothing to do with you.
Many blessings.
Please visit us when you can. We live in Baghdad.
Hey Ray and Ralph I am so curious, how did the two of you find out about the prophecies and the conference?
Ralph, would you also agree that Muslims would believe that they would be guilty of “Shirk” if they believed in any way shape or form that Jesus was in fact equal to God? My understanding is that this is THE unforgivable sin in the muslim religion.
The truth is that the quran is actually the antithesis of the Bible. I’ve heard it explained this way: The good guys in the Bible are the bad guys in the quran and the bad guys in the Bible are the good guys in the quran.
Hi Anonymous,
I like your name. Webster’s defines this word as:
(lacking individuality, distinction, or recognizability.)
Hang on, we’ll assume you have a real name that deserves a real response.
Actually the Qu’ran points to Jesus as the only way to salvation. “Shirk” as I’ve said before, is the belief that God physically partnered with Mary in producing Jesus.
Of course this is wrong, since we know, biblically, that Christ was the incarnation of God in human form. You know, the hypostatic union!?
So, for the Muslim, to believe Jesus as merely a biological son is Shirk. What we have to do as followers of Christ is to present the truth about Jesus, the author of our salvation.
The unforgivable sin for the Muslim is to believe in more than one God. They very wrongly think that we as Christians believe in three gods…God, Mary and Jesus.
Just keep that in mind as you continue your outreach to Muslims. I assume you have such an outreach.
Can’t wait to hear from you.
Oh, and change your name. It’s spurious.
Okay I am going to way in here, If Muslim’s redefine Jesus then they are speaking about, teaching about, relating to a FALSE Jesus. It frightens me to think that you are literally expanding the way to God, the God who has revealed Himself in ways that Muslims deny, for a purpose that I yet can not see. Can you hear me Ralph? God hates this. What do you say about that? Have you asked God? Lay out a fleece, fast, pray, ask for discernment, anything, but please seek God if what I am saying is true.
Like the Mormons and the J.W.’s and those who believe that homosexuality is okay in the Church today, we can debate a million times back and forth but the bottom line remains the same. You are misusing the Word of God and pigeonholing Christianity with Islam and are not willing to see if you are wrong.
Has anyone else been sort of waking up to the fact that Church is falling apart all around us?
Joie,
It is the false religion of Revelation. Why do you think there is such a move to accept it? Sharia law being observed in Ohio and Michigan, honor killings in New York. The fact that it is the religion of the Anti-christ, who has NO REGARD FOR WOMEN (the muslim religion has no regard for women, you can see it in how they treat them, as slaves.)
Ray
While you are all debating, hey, take a look at this blog entry by Joel Rosenberg: http://flashtrafficblog.wordpress.com/2009/08/21/irans-supreme-leader-urges-muslims-to-mobilize-against-u-s-and-israel-to-prepare-for-messiahs-arrival/
Here is the leading quote from that blog entry: “Iran’s Supreme Leader, the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, called on Muslims in neighboring countries this week to intensify preparations for the coming of the Islamic Messiah known as the Mahdi or the “Twelfth Imam.” He specifically urged Muslims to mobilize forces to defeat the United States and Israel.”
I feel Khamenei’s goal is to erase Christianity and the Jewish religions from the face of the earth.
Hi Joie,
Just a quick aside: to “weigh in” is not the word “way.”
I think I said this, but I live in the Middle East. Blessed Sunday to all of you since we’re 7 hours ahead.
And Ray, you are welcome out here with us. I’d love to hear what you would say to 200 Palestinian grad students here. And, you’d have to move beyond your Fox News understanding of Islamic women. Problematically, some of them think their head covering is spiritual. You would need to have some reference point to refute their belief and convictions. Oh and Ray, I am not a member of CTR, but I can’t wait to hear your response as you biblically meet with them and voice your complaints. As a man of God we all await your meeting results. To complain on a blog discredits you and Joie.
As to the “pigeon holeing” terminology, I’m not sure what that means. As far as I know, that term refers to making something smaller. (Ray you’re the expert; help me out here.)
So far, Joie, no one has answered my question about pagan literature used in the Bible. So I’m a little discouraged in this bog. No one seems to think. Come on Joie, lead the way in biblical knowledge. Or is this just a place where random claims are made?
Here’s the thing about the Qu’ran. It is not inspired, but it does contain some truth by which we can lead Muslims into the Bible and faith in Christ. Ray may know more than I do, but I don’t think that is “pigeon holeing” (what an ironic term). Joie and Ray, tell us about the Muslims you have led to Christ. I’m sure all the bloggers would love to hear your victory stories.
And Ray, I’m guessing you’re Amish with your devout committment to being “separate”, but then you must have a computer so that would negate the Amish idea. So you must be “separate” in some self-defined way. Anyway, please let us know when you meet with the CTR leadership. All us bloggers can’t wait to hear the results. If you don’t go; then we can’t really give any credit to what you say.
So here’s the deal. We, those of us like Ray, who live and work in the Muslim world and love Christ, invite Muslims to consider Christ. The Muslims have a narrow view of Jesus..as a prophet…so counter to this “pigeon-holeing” idea, we advocate Christ as prophet, preist and king. The one wherby we must be saved.
So a couple of action points:
1)Ray led many Turkish Muslims to faith so he and Joie should come to the Middle East, stay with us and instruct us in Muslim ev.
2)Ray is meeting with the leadership of CTR and will report the results. This will avoid any charge of gossip.
Can’t wait to hear how things go.
And, Joie and Ray, you don’t need a visa to come where we are. I think your bloggers will be encouraged by yours and Ray’s step of faith. Awesome. Please don’t let us down.
Ralph, are you discredited by writing on this blog as well? Just curious.
And why do you think that Ray is going in to speak to the leadership at CTR? I think that he is from out of state as well.
How did you get to this blog Ralph? Have you read the prophesies that these comments are to?
I will take some time to think through my answers and if I should answer and get to posting tomorrow. So for now, Good night fellas and Good Morning Ralph, where ever you are.
Ralph, I don’t think anyone has a problem with using the Koran to evangelize, (or the book of Mormon either). They do have things in them that can be used to reach out to them in their darkness. (The best lies have some truth to them). At the same time all of us have to recognize that Islam is a powerful demonic deception that holds many in darkness and spiritual captivity, and God desires them to be freed from deception and come to salvation in Christ. Mohammed was a false prophet, his followers are lost in darkness without knowledge of the truth of salvation, and his revelation in the Koran is part of that great darkness and deception. Using their Koran as an opening to preach the gospel is very different than watering down the gospel and not speaking the whole truth to them so as to make a way for them to remain Muslems while believing in Jesus. It leaves them within and still holding to a demonic teaching and deception. They are left still believe Mohammed is a prophet and the Koran is the word of God, but the Koran denies Christ’s death and resurrection among many other lies and distortions.
I think pigeonholing means to try and put one thing into another (that doesn’t naturally fit). The prophecy Joie got was that the church is pigeonholing Islam and Christianity, and that God hates that. Soon after she felt led to re-speak that prophecy she found out a local church was having this conference, which isn’t just a coincidence. This teaching is saying the two religions are compatible, that with a little blurring and watering down of certain truths, they can remain Muslems and be believers, and that we can accept their revelation as having some truth and being from God, and so be more acceptable to them by accepting their truth as being from God. It is compromising to be acceptable, and to break down barriers. I am sure their intentions are good, but I am also sure God does hate it, because Islam is an evil demonic deception that holds so many captive to lies, lost in their sins and trying to find salvation through means of the flesh, and God hates it.
I know how hard it is for Christian coverts in Muslem countries, and I know how hard it must be for ministers of the gospel in those countries, but it is meant to be by the power of God, not by compromise or watering down and blurring the truth, that we preach the good news of Christ to these people. It is not by our own wisdom or our own persausivness.
2 Cor 6
4Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”
17″Therefore come out from them
and be separate, says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.”
18″I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.”
1Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
Paul may have used an idol to an unknown god as an opening to preach the gospel to idolaters, but Paul didn’t compromise with idol worship in his day. He didn’t look for a way to blend Christianity with error or the demonic, to make it more acceptable, or to make Christianity more acceptable to the world through accepting their beliefs as valid. He preached the gospel knowing it has the power to save:
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. … God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.[a] 2For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power. … 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[c] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Martin said it as well as it can be said. A VAST difference between using the Quran as a bridge to preach the truth…and watering down the truth to make it more palatable. That is the difference between those who practice C3-C4 outreach in the Muslim world, and those who practice C5.
… which is to say we need to be led of the Holy Spirit.
Well said Martin.
Now I wonder if those attending CTR and those funding these trips to the Muslim populations will take stock and at the least ask the Lord if this is in fact okay to be doing.
We need some serious repentance in the Church today and I can feel the growing need daily. Things are about to get very serious. The way we have been doing church for many decades is about to be at it’s end.
In reference to the Shouts of Joy August newsletter, it was disturbing to hear that some in the church are mixing Islam with Christianity. Also, some are advocating continued adherence to Mohammed as a prophet of God and the Koran as a holy book even when becoming a Christian. We members of Jesus’ church must maintain sound doctrine and not compromise the Word of God. II Timothy 4:1-5 makes this very clear.
What is being described as the ‘pigeonholing’ of Christianity and Islam appears to be one of the very serious things Jesus has against the church in Revelation 2:20-23 – embracing the Doctrine of Jezebel. One of the applications of these letters to the churches from Jesus in the Book of Revelation is for correction and is meant for the church in all ages – that includes now.
The Doctrine of Jezebel in a nutshell refers to bringing in false prophets and worshipping a false god. Jezebel (see I & II Kings) a self-proclaimed prophetess, brought the false god Baal into Israel, served him, worshipped him and corrupted God’s people. She brought idolatry and apostasy to Israel. A grove (refer to Deut 16:21 and I Kings 16:33) was made in Israel to worship Baal, and this practice provoked God. In the church, this same practice refers to combining Christian doctrine and pagan beliefs and practices. Jesus declared that his church should have no part of it.
Islam and its prophets deny the deity of Christ. Listen to God’s Word in I John 2:20-25 and 4:1-3. We are to “try the spirits” and every spirit that does not confess Jesus Christ is not of God and is the spirit of antichrist. (Refer again to Rev 2:20-24; note the consequences to the people in the church who hold this Doctrine of Jezebel.)
We are to love the people who adhere to Islam, share the gospel of Jesus Christ with them, and pray for them, but individuals must not be told they can adhere to Jesus and a false prophet who denies him – this is deception and false doctrine. We are not to accept or condone false doctrine is Jesus’ church.
John 14:6 states the Church’s position clearly: “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me.” Jesus is the only way! Jesus is the only one who shed His blood for us and died to cleanse us from all sin. Many scriptures confirm this. Anyone who holds the idea of mixing Islam and Christianity or the belief that these two are compatible, please study the Scriptures in the Bible, pray and seek sound doctrine.
Thank you, Mr. Little. I so appreciate and respect you. I thank God for the heritage of the Lord in you!
Douglas Pirkey
This past Saturday evening a member of Christ the Rock Community Church gave me a letter written to the congregation from Pastor Bill Lenz. It contained their statement of faith and an explanation regarding their interest in the C5 Contextualization method, sometimes called “Common Ground” and “Insiders Movement”. They said that they had hosted the conference in hopes of learning more about the method. That being said, the process of pigeonholing Christianity and Islam has begun regardless of their commitment to every tenant of the C5 belief system.
Below is a link to an article addressing the work CTR is doing in the dessert. Note the quote from Janet Lenz, the programs director below.
http://www.upes.org/body1_eng.asp?field=sosio_eng&id=1501
“For its 2009 seminar, Christ the Rock is opening the doors to religious leaders from a number of other countries, including South Africa, Spain, and France. Local Saharawi Muslim leaders and Christ the Rock volunteers hope to continue building cultural and religious bridges in the North African region.
“We didn’t come here to convert anyone,” assures Janet. “We’re trying to open up conversation so we can better love our fellow man.” “
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/02/muslim.minister.defrocked/index.html
This is so serious. Who will take a stand for truth?
I greatly encourage readers to listen to the following selections from Janet Porter’s Faith to Action radio program.
To get to the site, type http://www.f2a.org. When you get there, click on the Radio/TV store section at the top of the page. A drop down box should appear that will give you the choice to click on Radio Archive Programs.
After you click on that, choose the programs from August 20th, 21st, and the 24th.
The programs for the 20th and the 21st feature Walid Shoebat a former PLO terrorist who is now a Christian. He has a book entitled: God’s War on Terror. The program for the 24th features Brigitte Gabriel, author of, They Must Be Stopped.
I subscribe to a devotional called Tabletalk from Ligonier Ministries. This ministry is of the Reformed faith. I have some theological differences with them but these differences are nothing that would have me breaking fellowship with someone from that perspective. In fact, the reason I read their devotional is because I greatly appreciate their respect for and emphasis on the holiness of God.
With that said, I want to focus on something Dr. R.C. Sproul has in his monthly column called Right Now Counts Forever. The subtitle for the column this month is: Is the Reformation Over? There’s a parallel I want to make with Islam so please bear with me.
At the end of the column he says the following: “At the moment the Roman Catholic Church condemned the biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone, she denied the gospel and ceased to be a legitimate church, regardless of all the rest of her affirmations of Christian orthodoxy. To embrace her as an authentic church while she continues to repudiate the biblical doctrine of salvation is a fatal attribution. We’re living in a time where theological conflict is considered politically incorrect, but to declare peace when there is no peace is to betray the heart and soul of the gospel.”
Reading this reminded me of this blog and the discussion over what took place recently at CTR concerning Islam and the Christian church. It should be helpful to remember that there will be no peace without the Prince of Peace. Remember, he won it all at the Cross, therefore, it’s counterproductive, and dare I say, blasphemous, for Christians to think they can establish peace by compromising the gospel message.
I agree, we must love those around us, regardless of their spiritual makeup. However, calls for loving our neighbor, even when they may be our enemy, aren’t enough. Even an atheist can love his neighbor. The problem is, by doing so he’s actually not living consistently within his stated worldview because atheists don’t believe in anything that isn’t physical or material. In other words, an atheist can’t account for the non-material aspects of life such as love or hate, therefore he has to borrow (steal perhaps?) from the Christian worldview. In the end, Jesus, who is the treasure of all wisdom and knowledge, doesn’t get any credit for having given the atheist their ability to love.
So where does that leave us as born-again Christians? The answer should be obvious. Let’s stop acting like atheists and give credit where credit is due by not just loving Muslims but loving them to Christ. In order to do that you have to tell the truth without compromise. You may encounter resistance in the process, but so did the apostles. Their responsibility is our responsibility as well. In short, the Reformation never ended. Each new non-Christian we encounter is an opportunity to begin the process all over again.
I leave you with this encouragement from Hebrews 10:23-24: “Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.” (NIV) I don’t know about you but I need that kind of encouraging love to continue the battle. It’s the kind of love that confirms the doctrines of Scripture and puts feet to my faith.
Good conversation folks with such biblical scholarship and prophetic gifting. Oh wait. Do any of you work among Muslims? Wow, if we had all your expertise out here with us, the Muslims would have come to faith long ago. Please don’t deny them your great gifting…or if long term missions life is outside your perview, which I hardly think it can be with all the talents exhibited here, maybe just a couple of victory stories about winning your Muslim neighbor to Christ.
I keep asking…but don’t see any response.
Still waiting.
Did your “Secret Source” forget to mention that Pastor Lenz announced to the CTR attendees that this was NOT a Common Ground conference like you reported, and that Common Ground wasn’t even there? You got schooled pretty soundly last weekend.
Now…someone needs to repent of her slanderous lies. I won’t hold my breath for a retraction even though you are clearly publishing falsehoods.
While you’re doing that, you might want to ask yourself if it is equally unethical to record a non-public seminar for the purposes of harm? That person who recorded the seminar and gave it to you should be ashamed, and you should not only be ashamed but worried that someone could press charges. It is illegal to post unapproved recordings on a public web site.
Not only is this illegal, you’ve also endangered lives in the mission field. Hey, but as long as your favorite obsession and his family are “getting theirs” for whatever wrong you think they’ve done to you, it’s perfectly justifiable, right J?
Redflag,
Be sure, your sins will find you out. Do nothing in secret. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal
life: and they are they which testify of me, I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father, except by me. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
So you were having private meetings to protect some from death, who would kill them? Other Christians? Or those worshipping a false god? The false religion of Revelation that follows the false “prophet”? Seeing as Obama states we are NOT a Christian nation. But in Cairo he stated we are a Muslim nation, and we have churches here that are celebrating ramadan, and inviting muslim clerics into their churches, and as the Pastor’s wife at CTR stated, they are not trying to convert anyone, but are trying to gain understanding, I would say you have a lot of explaining to do.
Are you mad that she had the gall to call your church out? To post FIRST HAND recordings of what is going on there?
You should read the Old Testament about God’s thoughts of mixing His truth with false gods. He said He is a Jealous God, don’t mix the profane with the Holy. But you seem to be supporting of just that, because you are following a man and not Christ. And whatever the man decides to do must be alright, it must be for the right reason. Well God said don’t do it, a man decides he knows better than God.
Remember when David went to get the Ark of the Covenant? Instead of making the priests carry it all the way back to Israel on staves, which God had said he wanted it done, David put it on a cart, well surely it must not be bad to help the priests out by not making them carry that heavy load. Well it started to slide off, a man was trying to help out by not letting it slide off the cart and BLAM, he died. But it had to be good because David, a man after God’s own heart said it would be ok, right?
Again, when has CTR had the mormons, or the JW’s, or the taoists in to their church to gain “understanding”? Why just THIS religion of Revelation 12? God is NOT pleased.
J said:
“Also about recording, on the audio clip they say that
“for those of you who are recording this conference please use discretion with how you use it.” I would say that that is an obvious act of permission and so would any court.”
What do you think this warning was about? Why do you think people need to be careful with recordings? Do you really think they were talking to people like your source who hid her secret recorder, or were they referring to the technical folks who were pre-approved to record this session? I’m betting that if those missionaries thought for a second that this could end up online and put Christians in the Muslim countries in danger, they never would have come.