“Say, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “Will it thrive? Will he not pull up its roots and cut off its fruit, so that it withers–so that all its sprouting leaves wither? And neither by great strength nor by many people can it be raised from its roots again.
“Behold, though it is planted, will it thrive? Will it not completely wither as soon as the east wind strikes it–wither on the beds where it grew?”‘”
Moreover, the word of the LORD came to me, saying,”Say now to the rebellious house, ‘Do you not know what these things mean?’ Say, ‘Behold, the king of Babylon came to Jerusalem, took its king and princes and brought them to him in Babylon.
‘He took one of the royal family and made a covenant with him, putting him under oath He also took away the mighty of the land, that the kingdom might be in subjection, not exalting itself, but keeping his covenant that it might continue.
‘But he rebelled against him by sending his envoys to Egypt that they might give him horses and many troops Will he succeed? Will he who does such things escape? Can he indeed break the covenant and escape?
You might want to check out Hosea chapter 8 in reference to this prophecy.
You may also want to look at the following references:
This is getting exciting! (tomorrow is a big day!)
What do you see as the themes connecting Joie’s Nov 3 post and the various Scriptures you listed?
First I must say that I am in no way a Bible scholar, and neither do I hear words from God. I am simply someone who reads and studies Scripture on a daily basis. I put those scriptures out there to see if anyone else thought they were relevant. That said….
Although I am not very good at expressing my thoughts, I will try…The last few sentences of the Nov. 3rd installment of this prophecy speaks of breaking a covenant, and the punishment that will come as a result. Hosea 8, I believe, is a parallel to this prophecy. It speaks of much the same things.
Deut. 32:1-47…speaks of a people who have turned from God and become crooked and warped. It talks of people who have deserted God, and turned to other things before their God. It says their “vine” comes from Sodom and Gomorrah. It may be completely off base, but the prophecy speaks of those rebelling against God, breaking a covenant. These verses address God’s wrath to those who turn from Him and put other things before Him.
Obadiah and Jeremiah have similiar messeges to each other, in that they both speak to the hearts of the people being deceived and believing they are safe in the fortresses they have built. But God is greater and He will bring discipline from wrong. In other words, you can’t hide from Him.
These are only my observations. As I said I am only someone who reads and studies scripture… I have not training or gifts of hearing from God. I just felt they rang in my mind as being relevant. I hope that helps you.
This is our opinion on what was posted; and we hope that it is helpful and encourages further study of the Old Testament and particular this passage.
It seems that this passage parallels the last two kings of the southern kingdom. (2nd Kings 24.) The chain of events that occurs happens 125 years after the Northern kingdom has been exiled to Assyria, approx. 597 -586 B.C. The Assyrian empire has weakened in power and the Babylonians are becoming stronger. The southern kingdom continues to have kings. The second to last king is Jehoiachin. The king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, has laid siege to Jerusalem. Jehoiachin decides to surrender to the Babylonians. All the Israelites are carried off except for the poorest people. (2nd Kings 24:10-16)
Nebuchadnezzar decides to put Zedekiah, who is Jehoiachin’s uncle, in power to govern over Jerusalem and the surrounding area, acting as a puppet king. (2nd Kings 24:17)
“Moreover, the word of the LORD came to me, saying, “Say now to the rebellious house, ‘Do you not know what these things mean?’ Say, ‘Behold, the king of Babylon came to Jerusalem, took its king (Jehoiachin) and princes and brought them to him in Babylon.”
“He (Nebuchadnezzar) took one of the royal family (Zedekiah) and made a covenant with him, putting him under oath He (Nebuchadnezzar) also took away the mighty of the land, that the kingdom might be in subjection, not exalting itself, but keeping his covenant that it might continue.”
Throughout Zedekiah’s 11 year reign, the Lord sends Jeremiah to him many times. One such occasion happens in Jeremiah 37. Zedekiah has enlisted Egypt for help against the Babylonians. This is clearly a violation of the terms of the covenant between Zedekiah and the Babylonians. By the time the Egyptians arrive, the Babylonians have got wind of the plan and laid siege to Jerusalem. Upon hearing of this news, the Egyptians turn around and go home. (Jer 37:5, 7-8)
“But he rebelled against him by sending his envoys to Egypt that they might give him horses and many troops. Will he succeed? Will he who does such things escape? Can he indeed break the covenant and escape?
This last question is a very powerful and important question, and one to think deeply about. The answer, of course, is no, those who break covenants cannot escape. However, this historical context provides some interesting nuances to this question.
The covenant referred to in the prophecy carries a double meaning. In a purely earthly sense, it refers to the covenant between Zedekiah and his Babylonian overlords. The Babylonians put him in power in Jerusalem, and in return they demanded that he obey them and be subject to them. When he turned to Egypt for military support, he broke this covenant. So this question carries an ominous tone when posed to Zedekiah. He was not able to escape, of course; he met a very gruesome death at the hands of the Babylonians (Jer 39:5-7).
On the second level, the “covenant-breaking” question refers to the covenant between God and Israel. Just as the Babylonians gave power to Zedekiah in return for subjection, God brought Israel out of Egypt, gave them land, sustained them, etc. in return for worship and obedience. Just as Zedekiah broke his end of the deal, Israel repeatedly failed to honor the covenant with God, culminating with this cowardly king seeking refuge in Egypt (The very nation that enslaved Israel for 400 years?!?!). And just as Zedekiah was not able to escape, Israel also did not escape. Shortly after these events occurred, Jerusalem was captured, the temple was destroyed, and the Israelite monarchy came to an end forever.
So here is the point of all this. The events of 2 Kings 24-25 remind us of 2 main things. First, God takes His covenants seriously. Second, when God’s people do not honor the covenant, God becomes angry, and He can and will destroy them. This message should cut to the heart of every Christian, not just those at Christ the Rock.
The good news, however, is that God is a loving and merciful God. We must seek Him with every fiber of our being and act like we are His people. This is always true, of course, but what we need to take from Joie’s prophecy is an extra sense of urgency right now. If something really is happening at CTR or if God is really moving in the Fox Valley in a special way, then we need to be ready for it. That means living in a covenant relationship with God as He intended.
Wow, Josh and Christina, what great exegetical work. And an AMEN to especially the part referring to all of us here in the Valley taking our covenant with God seriously with a special sense of urgency. Amen.
Wonderful insight Josh and Cristina. Thanks for the work you put into this. It was very informative.
Do you keep attacking CTR because you are the woman who told Bill that he was going to marry you?
and Bill said no and that he never heard that from God. If yes, are you angry with Bill because you wanted him to marry you, so now you are getting back at him?
All of this sounds like a personal vendetta. Has CTR wronged you in some way?
Great question. Has CTR wronged me in some way? Not in any way that would have ticked me off to remember after 14 some years. I’m just not the vengeful type. I realize that the prophesies sound like I personally am upset with them but thats not the case at all. It freaked me out so badly to hear them from the Lord that I spent five years working through them with my Pastor. And believe me many tears were shed, not only for them and what I knew they would go through but also how badly this would look for me, for my family, for our businesses, for my ministry. But it was the only real loving thing both between me and the Lord and for CTR. It was the only thing that I could do in faith. All that to say, no, CTR has not wronged me and the prophesies are not in any way a vendetta.
Oh! Sorry Abby! I didn’t see your post until just now. For some reason I didn’t get the email telling me someone posted. Your comment made me laugh. No! It was not me. I love Bill like a brother. I met the Lenz family just after Ben was born. I never knew Bill while he was single.
As far as attacking CTR goes, I am very sadly only repeating what the Lord is telling me to tell them and the Valley about them. I say sadly because I know their response to the prophesies is causing them pain.
Thank you for your response. I just notice in the bible that God is a loving God. Jesus loved and healed others. God and Jesus said the main coomands we have is to love God and others, the meaning of our lives. It is hard to believe that God would say things to you and tell you to tell the world all those, what seem like very hurtful things to Bill and about his family, himself and the church CTR. How are you being loving by keep attacking him in God’s name, where is the love in the attacks or explain the love? How is this ignoring your own faults (pillar in your eye) but concentrating only on others faults? How is this not judging others? How is this not casting stones (are you saying you don’t sin), so therefore you cast the first stone and all the stones at CTR and Bill, since Jesus said you could only cast stones if you never sin? So you never sin, so you can keep casting stones using God’s name and prophecy stactics? How is it OK to tell the world instead of keeping it strickly between just you and Bill? How you going at this with love? like God and Jesus said everything must be done in love? With how you are going about this, how are you going about this with love towards Bill and CTR? I did not see the love, so I was wondering about all that and what your view is, asking you these questions to not judge you, but loving and asking you and asking you to think about this and pray about it.
Let’s see if I can answer your questions without creating a dissertation here. Where is the love? The Bible says that, “if you love me you will obey my commands”. When a person receives a prophetic word that is difficult to deliver it is not only loving but sacrificial to deliver it. (See Jonah and Nineveh). When Peter, in the book of Acts, prophesied to Ananias and Sephira that they would die before the end of the day do you think that he was being unloving? He was delivering the word from the Lord. There are many Biblical examples of prophets giving words that the folks who received them didn’t like, (didn’t feel the love). That didn’t make the word illegitimate.
About casting stones and judgment, (Read I Cor. 5, and especially verse 12). I think that speaks to your misunderstanding about judging.
You are misunderstanding something here about what I actually did. I wasn’t going in to confront Bill about sin. I was going in to give him a word from the Lord. First I went to my Pastor, my husband, and my father to make sure that they were not hearing from the Lord that I shouldn’t go. Then I went to Bill, all alone. (Keep in mind that the prophesy was about Bill putting people into ministry that God was not putting there and putting people out of ministry that God was raising up.) I thought Bill received it well and was happy to be finished with it.
But then again the Lord spoke to me that he did not repent and that the enemy was being released on the body. That he would attack the families first, specifically the marriages and the children with sin. All of this He told me would need to be shouted from the roof tops, told everywhere in the city. For a long time I resisted. Then I went to my leadership, Pastor and Elders, to see what they thought. We sat on it for a long time again. Then the specific details in the prophesies began to unfold, they began to happen. At that time they told me to give the prophesies about the church splitting to the leadership of CTR, which I did. Both sets of Elders engaged in a process of discerning the prophesies. After again, some time my Elders gave me the ok to deliver them.
Keeping quiet all that time, (and I am talking years here), and being submissive to my leadership, and praying and fasting for all of it, (for years now we have met twice a week praying and fasting for CTR), and to stay in this process so that God could have His way, all this I see as loving. If it wasn’t for the love do you really think that I would have stayed in this? Do you think that I would have done something so idiotic that would make me look like a lunatic and hurt my family, my ministry, my church, and my reputation if I did not believe it was God and have it under girded with love? If this was in fact just some psychotic act of revenge do you think that so many people would believe it? Don’t you think that God would have sent at least one person in my direct line of spiritual authority to confront me, on what would need to be an enormous amount of
bitterness and hate? Don’t you think that He would have had one person, whom the Bible commands me to submit to, tell me not to do it?
Let me ask you a question. Have you prayed about this? Have you thought this through? Have you taken an honest look at what the prophesies say and then see, like the Bible says to do, if they are actually coming to pass? Check the dates on when the visions and dreams were given. Check the dates on when things were submitted to the leadership and then check the dates on when they came to pass. It’s difficult to be open minded when someone you love is being hurt. I don’t think it’s even possible for most young people. We need to have to endure it with our own children first most often to be able to say, yup, their wrong, and yes I need to do the difficult thing and make them accountable. That kind of love is hard for everyone. A lot of people never get there. It’s a mature love. One that causes change. One that upholds standards. One that is very much like our God, as we see all through His Word.
Hope that explains how I see it. Feel free to ask again if I missed something.
Yes you are right the Bible says that, “if you love me you will obey my commands”. The commands are the 10 Commandments. If you look at the 10 Commandments they all boil down to LOVE God and each person. Jesus said all the commands I have you sum up to the law of loving God and others.
You said see Jonah and Nineveh, but Jesus said we are to live in the New not the Old. New Testament, not the Old Testament.
1 Cor 5 12 have nothing to do with judgement, so I feel you did not answer my question regarding judging CTR. Please be more specific in how you feeling you are not judging them and casting stones when Jesus said you can only cast stones if you never sin? Did you never sin that you can cast the first stone and all the stones at CTR?
Regarding Ananias and Sephira, please read that story again too and I will too if you would need more clarification from me as well. Peter was asking Ananias questions about the money for the church and how he lied and asking him if he lied to God. Ananias then feel on his face and died on his own, without Peters help at all, Peter never said Ananias would die. Peter then showed the wife the same thing and showed her how her husband layed dead on the floor because of the lie of the money and lying to God and he said she would be taken out of there the same way. SHE decided to line up with Peters words as meaing dying instead of falling on her face and repenting and she died also. It was no propechy like the way you preach prophecy, propehcy is a choice and a belief in your own heart not the propehets heart for your life, she did not fall on her face and repent but instead she believed she would die and she did.
You talk about raising children but Bill in not your child, he is a grown man. God is also a very powerful God, God does not need your help to be Bill’s parent, believe me, God can do it himself if it was from him.
Yes, I saw how some of your prophecies line up with what happend. Pshysic readings do the same. The similarites I feel are from Satan’s power that God allowed Satan to tell you some of this future regarding CTR. It only makes sense because the future you were told was one that was evil and hurtful to say to Bill and his family, not helpful. Bill is not deciding to line up with your propecy and therefore as long as he does not and only lines himself up with what God tells him Himself and the Holy Spirt guiding him, Bill will not line up to man, but to God.
Are you upset because you wanted to be in leadership at CTR and you were not in there so you are attacking CTR? I think that was some of the rumors going around too about you and your reasons for attacking CTR. If no, then how do you know who was suppossed to be in leadership and did not go there and howcome God did not reveal that to you also?
Yes, I do think you would stay on this and do this no matter the negative outcome. I view your actions as a person seeking attention even if it is negative attention, as long as some are on your side, it is still winning. I know your mom is a Charasmatic Cathlolic, charasmatic people seek much attention. I feel that something inside you so much wants attention from so many others that you will do all you can to achieve that goal in your life. It feels narsastic in alot of ways, meanings things from each persons childhood that they did not grow out of yet, which makes them do misguided things, maybe without their own knowledge that it is so very wrong to do still after growing up from being a child. I think there might be something in your childhood that makes you feel and act out this way and you maybe can be unaware of what you are doing. Maybe your parents or someone misguided you about the bible in someways regarding God’s love and prophecy.
I feel you went to far when you started telling the world and did not keep it just between you and God and Bill. I think when you found out Bill was not listening to you the way you wanted, you took it way too far and you keep taking it way too far, for what reasons you are, I don’t know, but you are doing it for a reason, you are getting a pay off from it, it works for you somehow inside your psyche and you keep going with it, I really believe you are being deceived by Satan in your mind that it is working for you on some good, powerful way for you, but the power you know is not yours to have, it always was and always will be God’s, he has all the power, without God you cannot get out of the trap you have yourself in and without God nothing good will come out of any ministry you or anyone has or preaches and without God no one’s life without God means a thing.
Okay, let’s see.
You are simplifying some theological concepts here that in effect are creating flaws in your premise about love, judgment, and “living in the new and old”. But I think that your important point is about the legitimacy of prophesying to Bill that included some sin in his life and then telling others about them.
To explain this I would have to begin with what I believe about prophesy and then check and see if what I did fits in that framework to best explain this to you.
Many times in the Old Testament and a few in the New, prophetic words were given addressing sin in someones life. It wasn’t the person prophesying, judging anyone (casting any stones), it was simply a word from God trying to help a person get out of something that was hurting them and most often hurting others as well. Casting stones would actually be administrating the punishment of being judged not warning of coming judgment.
I was not judging Bill, I was giving him a word from the Lord addressing a sin in his life and explaining to him what God would do if he would not repent. There are so many examples in the Bible that you could open it almost anywhere and find one. (See all the major and minor prophets and John in Revelations)
The comment about raising children was in no way meant to imply that I was the parent and Bill was the child. I was trying to explain the kind of love a person needs to be able to be open minded when someone they love is being hurt because they are being accused of something. It was about the kind of love dude, not Bill.
Can you explain to me what was evil about “the future that I was told”? The Bible says that God chastises those he loves. Do you think that what happens when we are chastised is evil? Look at what happens when people disobey all over the Bible. Terrible things happen to them.
Think about this statement of yours, “It only makes sense because the future you were told was one that was evil and hurtful to say to Bill and his family, not helpful.” The part, “It only makes sense…” Trying to figure this whole thing out without having first of all, a good theological understanding of prophesy, second, not all of the facts involved, and third not having a prayerful time of asking the Lord if it’s true or not, is impossible to come to a proper conclusion. Just a thought.
I was not applying for a job at CTR. I was not angry with them for any reason. I was not attacking them. As far as knowing who should be in leadership and who shouldn’t, God didn’t tell me, that’s why I don’t know, nor do I have an opinion on that.
I’m quoting you here: “I know your mom is a Charasmatic Cathlolic, charasmatic people seek much attention.” That was mean to say. I wasn’t feelin’ the love. Charismatic is the theological term for people who believe that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are functioning in the church still today. In Christ the Rock’s theology they believe the gifts are for today. So if you attend there, dude, you are a Charismatic.
About seeking attention and my childhood, how can you make such a weird accusation when you have never even met me? I know that you haven’t met me because anyone who knows me would never think that I have delivered these prophesies for attention. Actually that makes me laugh. But here’s a thought, don’t you think if I was truly a person seeking attention to that degree, crazy enough, inspired by the devil enough, vengeful enough, and ticked off about a job loss 14 years ago enough, that someone who knows and loves me wouldn’t say, “hey Jo, your loosin’ it. Those are not prophesies but are devil inspired, hateful, judgmental, crazy facts your throwin’ out there?” Don’t you think that there would be some serious dysfunction somewhere in my life if all that were true? Don’t you think that my Pastors and Elders would have seen some of that? Even a little? Think about it.
Your comment about not being able to get out of a trap without God, I totally agree! The Bible says, “This poor man cried out and the Lord He heard him and delivered him out of his troubles! Oh taste and see that the Lord He is good and blessed is the man who trusts in Him!” Let’s not forget that thats what all of this is about. God being the Head of His church. Him being trustworthy and faithful both to us, for us, and to accomplish His plans!
I also want to say that in noway do I think that I have done all of this perfectly. But I can sincerely say that I have done the best that I was able, believing that every major action was what God not only wanted me to do but was actually asking me to do. If there was some personal gain for me I still cannot see it, except for the knowledge of pleasing Him.
Thank you Joie for explaining. I am sorry for sounding harsh there alittle, that was not so loving of me, I did not mean to sound that way, but came out wrong. That is fine, all I can say is I really hope you are doing all this with a clean innocent heart in ALL you are doing, and it will be fine and turn out for the good “in the end.” That is how God is, he is good and every good or bad thing that happens or is said in the world, God knows and it will all turn out for the good and for the love “in the end.” Psalms and Proverbs and other of God’s promises, promises me and all the Fox Valley that it is OK, don’t worry, whatever does not line up with God or word, we all know God’s outcome for those people, so if your heart is pure and you are doing all this with God’s love and his direction, then it will all be for the good “in the end.”
Hmm, that was an abrupt turn around. What happened?
I wanted to say thanks for writing me and engaging me with so much honesty here. Most folks just turn up their noses and spread the rumors without even clarifying. I think, personally, that you have done the VERY loving thing here and asked. Even if your questions were difficult you asked them anyway and I commend you for it.
I whole heartedly agree with you, “all things work to the good for those who love the Lord and are called according to His purpose.” And I do believe that God will have His Way here in the Valley.
I am so curious, how old are you? I am going to guess you ate …23. Am I close? 🙂
The turn around is like this, I just have started to listen to God’s promises, I know God has all the power, the Bible says so, I know if anything is not done with a good heart, God takes care of it, God says so, I know I don’t have to worry if something is good or bad, God takes take of it all, God says so, I know everthing bad someone does, God takes care of it, God says so, I know everything good someone does, God take care of it, God says so, I know Satan has some power, but God has the ulitimate power over Satan, God says so. I don’t have to worry about agreeing with someone or not agreeing with someone, I know I have to follow God, God says so, I know God says to love you and love all, God says so, even though I may not agree with everything man says or not much sometimes, it is OK, God says to love you and people, God wil take care of it, I am free to love you and God takes care of it all. This is why I said, as long as you are doing this with a good clean heart, you are Ok and I am so happy for you, people who do not do things with a good clean heart, God takes care of it someday and Him being a teacher, He takes care of it, but as long as you are doing with what you are doing with a clean heart with true love, you will be fine, as far as the rest of us and all you say about the future of the Fox Valley and CTR, God will take care of it and it will be for the good and love in the end for us all.
Abby, Are you Tammy?
No, my name is Abby, and I am not 23, sorry.
Sorry, yes it is. This has nothing to do with any person expect for us and CTR though, not any persons involved in the past. What happpend in the past, happened for a reason and we are at peace, God is in control. Any first name can be used here on the Internet like “Abby”, for example the nick name you can make for yourself or whatever, but we just did not feel like saying our name at that time, sorry if that upset you in anyway, did not mean to upset you by saying a different name, just did not feel like saying the name, but now the name is known for you and everyone who wants to know. Should not have said a different name in the first place, so sorry for that, like God says “Do not fear man, fear God.” so that is why the truth is known to you regardless of privacy on the internet and not having to say a true first name, now you ask, now we tell you, no lies. Not upset, thank you for asking and now you know.
Ps. Do you have or do you still have IP address finder on your computer for all your web sites? so this way you always know who is reading your web sites?
PSS. Please also read number 22,23,24 above in case you missed it. Just curious, you say “is this Tammy?” is that because you know Tammy personally? OR because your husband does not know what you do and that is why you say “is the Tammy?” assumming our life is the same as what the question is. Most people ask questions and do not realize they assume things based on their own life experience and how they live. Not to be mean, but just asking.