Lakeland Revival???
I am sure that many of you have heard about the Lakeland “Outpouring” in Florida, spearheaded by Todd Bentley of Fresh Fire Ministries that occurred this summer. Many of you, I know, have been receiving emails and post cards from local Pastors who are claiming that they are bringing back the anointing that they received at this “Outpouring” and are “imparting” it at services and conferences that they are holding here in the Fox Valley. For those of you who are not aware of what is happening with this event I want to strongly encourage you to click on the blue links below and do some research because something very important is happening in the Body of Christ and this is only the beginning.
Here is a segment that Nightline did on Todd Bentley on July 9th:
For the past month I have had quite a bit of time in prayer and study, good alone time with the Lord and His awesome Word. Let me add to this list, my husband Douglas, because not only is he passionate about his own studies of the Word he is a wealth of Biblical information, good solid doctrine, a wise and engaged spiritual head, and a serious prayer partner.
Much of this time was spent hearing from the Lord about what He is about to do with the Church at large. Many times He was confronting my small, local thinking and asking me to understand that He was speaking about the global church. The underlying theme of what He was speaking to me was holiness and that He is calling the Church to truth and repentance. The foundational scripture He gave to me for this season is I Corinthians 3:10-15:
“By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.” (NIV)A small part of what He was sharing with me was about both what was happening and what was about to happen in Lakeland, Florida. Out of these times of prayer and visions I have come with a call from the Lord to share with you some of what He has told me. In early May, He told me in a vision that Todd Bentley was in sin and that some of the sin was “deviant” (His word). I was told that the sin that would be revealed would include sexual sins, problems with the money, and testifying to miracles that have not happened. He said that it would be exposed but that was not why the event would end. It would end and be exposed because he and his fellow ministers were not allowing Christ to be the Head. I was told that He would allow the move to become well known and that I should watch to see who would (and I use His word here) “own” this. Many ministers of prominence would “own” what was happening. He didn’t say why this was important, but He wanted me to watch for it and to watch who did. On June 25th, a “Commission Service” was held in Lakeland where a number of well known ministers prophesied over Todd and gave their blessing to this series of meetings, bringing Todd under their apostolic covering. Here is that series of videos: [one_half last=”no”][/one_half] [one_half last=”yes”][/one_half] [one_half last=”no”][/one_half] [one_half last=”yes”][/one_half] On May 4th, when I heard that Paul Cain, Kansas City Prophet, was to speak on the platform at Lakeland and then did the following night, I was trembling with the seriousness of how wrong it was to allow Paul Cain to have the platform. I watched the video of the event sometime later and was amazed that this man, who had recently been publicly addressed by people in his same camp for being homosexual and an alcoholic and who was not willing to submit to a restoration process, was here on the pulpit prophesying. That night I went to pray about it and the Lord simply told me to continue to watch. (Here is the link to Morning Star Ministries regarding Paul Cain being caught in sin as recently as 2004) http://www.morningstarministries.org/resources/special-bulletins/2004/update-paul-cain-part-3#.UiA_fT-bs4k
I have been asked two main questions about this situation. The first has been for us to reveal the evidence which we have that Paul is an alcoholic, and the evidence that he has been involved in homosexual relationships. I do not think this should be done at this time. In fact, I pray that there will be a time when we have been convinced of Paul’s true repentance and restoration, and these things can be destroyed without anyone else ever having to see them. However, if Paul continues to deny these things, and/or accuse, blame, or threaten others, there may be a time when we will have to use this evidence.Here is the link to Paul not submitting to the restoration process, same web site:
Paul originally agreed to submit to Larry Alberts and his team in his restoration process. These men are well known and respected by many of Paul’s friends in ministry. We strongly urged him not to leave Larry’s care and oversight. However, he left Larry’s oversight just over a year ago and moved to California to relate to a group of men that we do not know much about. Neither do we know the process that they say that Paul went through. Therefore, we cannot say with confidence that this is a genuine restoration that is according to the principles of God’s Word.The night that Paul Cain “prophesied” on the platform at Lakeland, he lied about his sin, claiming that there were only “accusations against him” even though earlier he had admitted to these sins on his own web site. Then he went on to tell the crowd that he had led a celibate life even though he had recently admitted to having years of sexual relations with men. I’ll post part of Rick Joyner’s article that explains what happened: The History and Future of the Present Revival – Part 3 – By Rick Joyner
“Later, Paul submitted himself to a restoration process and they declared him restored to ministry. When those who had led this process explained how they had accomplished this so fast, it set off more alarms in me. Some of the communication I had with them and with Paul only solidified my doubts. Even so, I had a great hope that I was wrong, or even if I was right about the validity of their restoration process, that the Lord would intervene some other way so that Paul could be delivered from the powerful strongholds that had taken such a grip on his life. I kept that hope until Paul spoke in Lakeland about “the allegations” about him and his assertions of having lived a celibate life. That was pretty overwhelming evidence that he has still not repented of these serious transgressions. What Paul called “allegations” are abundant and overwhelming evidence, which Paul has admitted to. However, admitting something is not the same as repenting of it. As long as there is blame-shifting, an attempt to cover them up, or dilute the seriousness of them, the restoration process has at best fallen far short of its purpose.”Here is the link to the entire Bulletin that Rick Joyner wrote with his thoughts about Paul’s comments at Lakeland. What was happening to Todd’s discernment when he supposedly was spoken to by the Lord and asked to have Paul Cain come to prophesy? What was happening to the discernment of the other leaders to even allow Paul to speak on the platform? They were making strong claims of being in “the glory” and in “revelatory realms” and of receiving prophetic words from the Lord, and yet were none of them warned by the Lord that Paul was not in a right state to have the pulpit, to be allowed to “prophesy”? At this point, in mid June, I thought that the Church needed to be warned and I went out on the internet trying to see if anyone had heard from the Lord before it happened about Paul Cain or about Todd being in sin. I also felt that it was time to go public with some kind of warning. I asked the three men who oversee and advise me in the visions and prophetic words that I receive, if they thought that I should go public with what the Lord was telling me. They all three agreed that unless the Lord specifically told me who and how to tell it that I should wait and remain silent until the Lord specifically directed me to do otherwise. The week before Paul Cain spoke at Lakeland, we were at a CCV House of Prayer meeting on June 10th. The Lord spoke to me about having three intercessors and myself go away for 24 hours and pray and listen because He wanted to reveal some things to us. We went on June 16 and 17th. The Lord began to speak to us about what was happening in Lakeland as soon as we began. He told one of the prophetic women who were there that Todd Bentley was in sin and that the timing of the closing of the Lakeland event would be significant. The Lord then began to speak to us about ‘speaking the truth’. He made it clear that I was to speak publicly not only about what He was telling me about Lakeland but also about the Fox Valley and the Church at large. The exposing of sin in Lakeland and at some of the churches here in the Valley is only a small fraction of what He is about to do. He intends to clean up the church. This cleansing has to happen to prepare the way for true revival, for true reformation. He wants the Church to function in the way that He has set up and commanded us to work in Matthew 18. He wants us to begin to speak the truth, calling those in sin to repentance.
Matthew 18:15-18
If your brother sins go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.He told us that when we speak the truth, rain will come. One of the truths that the Lord asked us to address publicly in that same 24 hour meeting was the sin of idolatry. He showed us that when Jesus Christ is not the center and our focus shifts to anything else, that point of focus becomes an idol; whether it be a man, an angel, sign and wonders, sensation, whatever. As we were praying about what other specific truths to speak and how to proclaim them in a way that brings restoration and repentance instead of offense and division, my husband phoned and told us that he felt that the Lord wanted us to read Zechariah 10:1-4. Here is what we read:
Ask the LORD for rain in the springtime; it is the LORD who makes the storm clouds. He gives showers of rain to men, and plants of the field to everyone. The idols speak deceit, diviners see visions that lie; they tell dreams that are false, they give comfort in vain. Therefore the people wander like sheep oppressed for lack of a shepherd. “My anger burns against the shepherds, and I will punish the leaders; for the LORD Almighty will care for his flock, the house of Judah, and make them like a proud horse in battle. From Judah will come the cornerstone, from him the tent peg, from him the battle bow, from him every ruler.Almost two months after this 24 hour prayer time the news broke on August 12th that Todd was divorcing his wife. Here is the link to Todd’s web site and a letter from his Board of Directors. They initially wrote a letter on August 12 assuring the public that no infidelity was occurring on either part but then on August 15th they wrote another letter stating that Todd had an inappropriate relationship with one of his female staff members. Again I asked the Lord about this but all He said was “Watch the Leaders” referring to those who “owned” the event, seen in the “Commission Service” video clips above. And again He said that this is not coming down because of Todd’s sin, but because he and his staff were not allowing Christ to be the Head. Knowing what we know now about Todd’s personal life, viewing the videos of the actual revival and those prophesying about Todd brings on a whole new set of questions. Here are what a few of those ministers prophesied about Todd at Lakeland:
“You have no guile in you” — Paul Cain June 17th at Lakeland
“Your power will increase, your authority will increase, your favor will increase, influence and revelation will increase” — C. Peter Wagner June 25th at Lakeland
“Knowing that you have walked in a manner worthy of the Lord, pleasing Jesus in every way, bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the intimacy and knowledge of God…” — Che Ahn June 25th at Lakeland
“The spirit came on me and said, Todd, because you asked, like so very few men on the face of the earth asked, to see my glory, I will begin a revival through you, that will pass beyond gifts in to the very heart that moves God, to release gifts to his children and Jesus filled with compassion healed the sick and Jesus filled with forgiveness said he who is without sin cast the first stone, and Jesus filled with justice and truth threw over tables and took out whips and cleansed the temple of God. Todd, I have chosen you because of your background, because of your background, because of your background to release my nature, when you release my gifts to become a living epistle like the Word who became flesh, and people saw the glory of God and I will use you to father a movement that operates in such revival power. But it is coming out of the very nature and heart of God and you will teach people how to behold God until they are transformed from glory to glory, from compassion to mercy, to loving kindness, to truth, to justice, to forgiveness, and a whole generation will move in such signs and wonders and power. But everyone will give glory to God. And I feel like, Todd, that when you were 12 years old and I just graduated from Baptist seminary, the Holy Spirit fell on me and he started to speak to me over and over and over again about a generation that would come on the earth that would do signs and wonders and change society and society would not change them and you are a first fruits of that generation of nation changers that will release the glory of God in all its fullness in Jesus name.” –Stacey Campbell June 25th at LakelandHow could so many prominent ministers of our day, many who claim to be hearing directly from the Lord, not have had an inkling that something was very wrong? What was actually happening to Todd as he obviously knew what was being spoken over him was not true, and yet was still jerking his head back and forth, as if the Holy Spirit was manifesting in a miraculous way to confirm the words being spoken? And why were so many in the crowd doing this as well? As lies are being falsely prophesied over a minister in front of thousands wouldn’t you think that the Holy Spirit would be communicating to the believers a message of grief, or at least that something is very wrong? And yet thousands were “manifesting” jerks and movements as if the Holy Spirit was confirming what was being said. What was going on here? I have cried out to the Lord asking why so many people seemed to believe so many things that were not true. What He told me was that He created them to follow; that He gave them gifts; that He gave them discernment, and prophesies, and teachers to tell us what is Biblical, Pastors to help tend to the flock and to direct us. At so many levels the church is breaking down and not functioning as it should, as it is fashioned and called to do. So what are we to do in this situation? God is telling us to speak the truth. After speaking so many times about the need to speak up and tell the truth; the truth about what He is telling us, the truth about what we know that is uncomfortable to confront, the truth of the Word of God, He gave me these scriptures for the Church:
Ephesians 5:11-17
Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light. For this reason it says, “Awake, sleeper, And arise from the dead, And Christ will shine on you.” Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, making the most of your time, because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is.
2 Corinthians 4:2
Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.When we speak the Word of God into any given situation, the truth is active and alive and can divide what is from the Lord and what is not. So, in the example of Lakeland, for those who knew about Todd’s adultery, had they spoken the truth in love in the very beginning, the Spirit of God could have had His way. But when the truth is covered up, the sin grows and spreads and destroys not only that beloved believer but the ones around him as well, especially when they are in a leadership position. And when lies are spoken to cover the truth, the enemy is then released into the situation, because he is the father of lies. Although the truth can be very difficult to speak, especially in these circumstances, we as believers are in covenant to take up that cross and speak the truth in love. One thing the Lord has been asking me to do through this process is to call the ministers who publicly supported and endorsed the Lakeland event to repent. Call them to admit what they have done wrong, to own how they have misled the people, and simply repent so that they can be restored to the body as the leaders and ministers that they are. Until then, I believe not only the Bible, but also God prophetically, is saying to these ministers, not to continue in ministry until they have publicly repented and have appropriately been restored from this situation. These events in Lakeland become exceedingly important to us in the Fox Valley because a group of ministers closely affiliated with Todd, and what happened there, are now coming to Valley Harvest Church in Neenah in October. In their previous invitations, they have claimed to have gone to Lakeland, picked up the ”anointing” and brought it back to the Fox Valley to impart it to the believers here. Since the sin that was happening at Lakeland began to come out, some of them have simply scrubbed off the name Lakeland and have continued ministry as usual. With everything we know now, including what the Lord has spoken about this, I wonder what exactly they are bringing to the Valley. Pastor Bidal Torrez and Jeff Jansen, who are hosting this October event, have also not only promoted Lakeland in their invitations but have just recently held a conference with Paul Cain as well. As a prophet, I have heard many times in the past that we, the Church in the Fox Valley, are not to be influenced by the Bob Jones camp, which includes the ministry of Todd Bentley. These words about not being influenced have been widely circulated among the men hosting these events, my pastor and spiritual leadership, and many who attend the CCV House of Prayer. For years now, we had been told not to be influenced by either the Bob Jones camp nor the C. Peter Wagner / Dutch Sheets camp. City Church, hosted at Valley Harvest, was an organization of local churches and ministries who were praying for unity in the Fox Valley and for a promised Outpouring of the Holy Spirit. When Jeff Jansen first began to minister with the City Church, before he was closely connected with Bob Jones, we received him with open arms. But as his ministry matured, he became more closely connected with the Bob Jones camp, taking on their distinctives, beliefs, and experiences. The Lord spoke to me just after the Fire and Glory Conference in January of 2006, which the City Church was hosting, that we were to no longer have Jeff Jansen minister with us for a season so as not to be influenced by the camp he was affiliated with. I was specifically told that the outpouring of the Holy Spirit that was coming to the Fox Valley was going to be very different from what was happening in these two camps and that the Lord did not want us to be influenced by them. Consequently, until that outpouring came, we were to discontinue having these camps minister here in the Fox Valley. It was the response to these words from the Lord that caused the City Church to split apart. For a season the Lord told me to remain silent. But now He has asked me to speak the truth about these very difficult things. They are difficult because I sincerely love and respect both Jeff and Bidal. However, they are opening a door to the Fox Valley to a movement that the Lord does not want here, to a movement that is going through a deeply questionable time, at best. In light of the sins being uncovered at Lakeland; that Paul Cain is not in right standing for ministry and yet both Bidal and Jeff have been ministering with him; that so many ministers prophesied for and endorsed all of this and have not publicly repented, I am asking the Body of Christ to lift up a standard of holiness and love by calling these people to account. I am also asking the local Pastors to please pray about speaking out publicly regarding what they are discerning about this matter. I received a phone call from a much respected minister in Rwanda this past week. I had been discussing this matter with him for some time. He phoned to encourage me to speak up and tell the Church what God was saying even in the face of rejection, persecution, or death. May we all heed his encouragement to be free with each other and share what we believe the Lord is speaking to us. How else will we reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ?
I read your article with great interest.
The problem I have with these type of ‘God told me’ prophetic words is that what is the point of them being shared ‘after the event’.
Who can verify that God told you these things when you claim He did? Why sit on them ?
Hindsight is useful but foresight is better!
Are you clear yet on your so called ‘angelic’ orbs?
Blessings
Bishop Wilson
Joie, I’m not sure how I made it on to your newsletter list but I’m sure God knows.
I’m an ordained pastor with the Vineyard movement and have seen and heard many good and questionable things over the years not only with the Vineyard but with the Word of Faith/Kansas City Prophets/Toronto/Brownsville movements as well. Our God is definitely a “Supernatural” God who enjoys giving His bread to His children no matter what their level of transformation.
When I was reading your newsletter my thoughts bagan to dwell on how Jesus must have handled sin and brokenness with his disciples.
Why didn’t Jesus “discipline” Judas? It was well known that he was stealing from the money bag. I wonder if Jesus kept Judas from ministering? There is no indication that He did.
What about the “sons of thunder” James and John? How did Jesus handle their thirst for power and position? As I recall it was those two and peter who were allowed to go with Him to see Jarius’ daughter, the one raised from the dead.
What about Peter’s temper?
When Jesus sent out the 12 or the 72 for that matter, were they seasoned, mature, faithful or tested?
Was Jesus aware of everything around Him? or did even He get surprised and blindsided?
I wonder what the disciples thought when he spit in peoples eyes or how many things did Jesus do that would have never made the gospel record because it was just too wild and crazy?
What’s neat is to see that Jesus never changed. He was never shaken, except for maybe in the Garden, but I can’t blame him for that because I know I wouldn’t have faired very well at all.
I do think he understood the plight and weaknesses of mankind and the trials that we all face.
Did Todd make a mistake? Most definitely. Did those around him lack discernment? Maybe…maybe not. Was anyone out to intentionally deceive? I don’t believe so. Not really.
Maybe it was nothing more than trying to put new wine into an old wine skin and it burst!
God knows what He is doing.
Keep listening. Stay submitted. Surround yourself with others to “let every word be established.”
May we all make Jesus the “one thing” that is necessary.
Blessings,
Jim
Greetings From Vancouver Island
Having spent a year in Abbotsford I have become familier with Todd Bentley. Got to know many of the young people there. Most of young people are caught up in the ways of the world and the majority of the Church leaders are remaining silent and not speaking out about sin. The Church is not being prepared to stand in faith and holiness. Soon we will see persecution rise up against the Church and the many brought to the camps. A time of repentance is needed to purify and make ready a people who will overcome by their faith. Jesus must become the first and foremost in our lives. Revival is at hand. A great earthquake is at the door that will usher in a spiritual move to bring the Church into a spiritual maturity.
The truth needs to be spoken so that we can rise up in repentance and be found wanting again. The young people need leaders who follow the king and know the heart of the Father. We are here not to please ourselves. May the Lord be uplifted in speaking the what needs to be spoken in truth. Joshua Ben David.
I am truly disappointed in your letter against the children of God. These are your brothers and sisters in Christ.
I agree with Jim in his comments above.
If God brings anything to light it is for you to pray
for the person not become a person who bashes others and causes division in the body of Christ. And sends out letters.
Make sure you have not been hit by the heresy hunters
or the religious spirit has not wrapped itself around you.
Bill Johnson has a good word on this situation could you
take a look at this? http://www.bjm.org/regarding-todd-bentley.html
First to Bishop Wilson, I only sat on them because I wasn’t told to tell them publicly until now. I told a number of people right away, back in May. At least five folks I told all of it and then we spoke about it vaguely at the House of Prayer, about 20 people. If anyone is reading this blog and I told you well before the 12th of August could you just post and say so? I can also send you an email that I sent to a Pastor in Rwanda about it weeks before it happened. When I get back tonight I’ll shoot it over to you Bishop Wilson. I want to say though that it is not important that “I knew before hand”. That’s not the point of all of this. Encouraging the church to speak the truth and to protect the Body in the Fox Valley is.
To Jim, what about the money changers in the temple? What about the scriptures about exposing sin? What about Ananias and Saphira? I appreciate your questions. They give a good balance to those who jump to judgment. I think that Jesus knows what to do in each situation and it is really important to wait on Him for direction especially when people are confronted, called to repentance, etc.
I want to speak to one more thing. “Did Todd make a mistake?” I don’t know if he made mistakes but when he entered into an adulterous relationship with another woman he was making a sin. Can he be forgiven? Can he be restored? Of Course! Thank God for the cross! But he needs to deal with what he did, yes, but he effected a large number of people as well, very publicly. And so many people have unanswered questions.
I have read your aticle and was wondering, which church in the foxvalley are you affiliated with? Who is it that oversees you?
Thank you,
Lenee
Hey Lenee,
I attend Christ’s Church of the Valley and my Pastor is Tim Snell. CCV is 13 years old and is a fantastic church. I also submit every vision and word from the world to his wife who is a great discerner and not afraid to tell me if she disagrees with me. My husband Douglas also has to give the okay on everything I say publicly, as he is my spiritual head.
Bishop Wilson, As Joie’s Pastor, I can confirm this was shared with me several weeks prior to these events unfolding. Others within our church can as well.
Lenee,
Let me also add that in addition to being a member of our church, Joie also has a parachurch organization with a board of directors that directly oversees her ministry. This is, in effect, two layers of accountability she is under: both her church and her board.
Joie,
I want to say as somebody that has been blessed by both Valley Harvest and Todd’s ministry, I don’t see your comments on either to be completely accurate nor very beneficial to the body of Christ… 1 Todd was overseeing a large revival while for some maybe all of the time being in sin. But do we throw the baby out with the bathwater? I NEVER believed Todd was preforming the miracles only that he was an imperfect servant of God being used to do mighty things. I am always aware that we can sin, I SIN, but I look past the man to what God is doing THROUGH them. I believe mighty things, good things, were done in Lakeland. And I pray restoration to Todd and his wife as I am sure you do. Stop Todd from ministring while in sin YES, say EVERYTHING is wrong because of it…no. As too your points about VHC and Fire and Glory… just look at the fruits. Jeff and Bidal have been pioneering ministries that are changing villages and cities, healing the sick, seeing souls radically saved and desiring nothing but the love, grace, mercy and power of God! I know… at least I believe you to be ministering out of love with a desire for real and life changing manifestations of GOD, not fluff or fake spirituality but the words we speak are all we have on this earth and we should watch them closely, especially when speaking of another ministry. I have seen the heart of VHC and the fruit of Jeff Jansen and would wish and pray nothing but blessings to either.
In a side note:
I know of no meetings planned or in the past that VHC has had or will have with Paul Cain.
I am replying at large to those who have written in and said that God uses imperfect vessels for service and not to throw the baby out with the bath water, etc. I would be the last person to judge anyone for their sins. God tells us in 1 Corinthians 4:5 to “Judge nothing before the time”. God isn’t done with any of us yet. Yet, a point is also made — a very sobering point — in Matthew 7:21-23 which says, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. MANY will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not PROPHESIED in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done MANY WONDERS in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ These are people who are working miracles and prophesying, and casting out demons. Yet, Jesus says He doesn’t know them? Quite frankly, I believe that the church is so desensitized to sin, it’s everywhere and we’ve taken on the attitude of the world which gives a wink and a nod to sin — it’s “not that bad” or “it’s not the unforgiveable sin”. You know, it’s NOT my place to judge. I can judge the fruit, but it is VERY apparent that God Himself will judge what goes on for HE looks at the heart. Can you IMAGINE the presence of the Lord being as great in those meetings as it was during the meetings of the first part of Acts? A lot of these ministers would have been carried out the door like Ananias and Sapphira. Sin simply cannot exist in God’s presence. Who dares to stand in God’s presence and lie? And who dares to prophesy a lie? How terrifying. How sobering.
Hey Anonymous,
Here is a link to the invitation to “Godstock” with Bidal, Jeff, and Paul Cain.
http://www.injesus.com/index.php?module=message&task=view&MID=0B007EMF&GroupID=BB006O74
While I was not immediately aware of Paul’s presence at Godstock, I still hold to my statements of love and adoration for Bidal and Jeff’s ministries. Paul Cain has an anointing and a gift as we all have been given and with that the devil attacks in many ways, I only pray that he admits his immoralities and is restored!
Still VHC itself doesn’t have any planned meetings with Paul Cain to my knowledge. (My knowledge albeit limited to their website and what I hear from trustworthy friends)
I would question this however… With all the talk about influence by these camps and sin, deceit and corruptness they bring are we so naive to say that the same if not worse isn’t already here? While I don’t know your church personally isn’t it a shame to deny the healing message? Or supernatural gifts such as prophecy or miracle working power? Shouldn’t we focus on praying against the spirit of witchcraft that surrounds us? Perhaps the Universalist churches or churches where homosexuality isn’t a sin? While I understand the need to be true watchmen let us remove the log from our own eyes before we poke at the splinter of another.
Writing to you from Juneau County,
Just as with anything we are reading, we ourselves need to take what is written here and pray over it. I also ask myself those same questions. Were there those that did listen to the Holy Spirit telling them something isn’t right with what was going on with Todd Bently, and what did they do with it? I agree that the Body of Christ is remaining quiet to sin in a way that is not healthy. Although you feel this is a specific word towards the Fox Valley area, it is confirming words regarding a ministry a friend and I are involved with that there have been concerning issues at hand, and the word we have been receiving regarding what we do from here.
I appreciate knowing you are accountable to your church, as well as another board. Please continue to actively seek the Lord and be faithful to Him. Thank you for being willing to be faithful to God regardless of any persecution.
>> On June 16th, when I heard that Paul Cain, Kansas City Prophet, was to speak on the platform at Lakeland and then did the following night
I am very confused about your timeline and testimony, bearing in mind Paul Cain spoke at Lakeland in May and had a stroke only days later that he is still recouperating from.
I am very glad you sent this Joie. I haven’t seen you since Jeff Janssen first started coming to the area. You may remember me as being at the abortion clinic in the wee hrs. of the night/early morning with Cheryl Hartman. I will forward this to her and also David Welzenbach who has been hosting prayer mtgs. in the Waupaca area with Bidal Torez.
I was attending the Todd Bentley mtgs. held at Catherine’s Variety store by satelite on their 20′ screen. They had to shut down because finances for the store were not enough to keep the lights on and the plumbing also became a problem (flooded one of the back rooms while we were there) I was beginning to question some things and stopped attending.
Once again I thank you and look forward to further postings from you.
Barb
Hey endtimes, thanks for the heads up on the dates about Paul. I kept going over that myself. I couldn’t remember exactly when that happened, a few months later while I was writing this, so I googled for the dates to help folks get a time line. Sorry. I must have gotten the date when the youtube of Paul speaking was posted. Do you have the exact day in May? I am curious about the timing of the “Godstock” conference in Iowa.
O.K. I got it. May 5th. That was the date that Paul spoke at Lakeland. And Godstock, in Iowa, had him to speak later in May. Does anyone know then if he actually spoke at that event, seeing that “endtimes” is saying that he had a stroke? The reason that it is important that he was asked to be a part of the ministry team for that event is because he was not deemed restored for ministry and then proved it at Lakeland. It speaks to the discernment and judgment of the sponsors of these events regarding who they believe they are hearing from the Lord, to have speak.
I’m Joie’s husband. Several months ago she began telling me about what the Lord was telling her about the revival in Lakeland, FL and Todd Bently and that he would fall.
My wife is a woman of whom the world is unworthy. Never have I seen a member of the body of Jesus Christ agonize like she does over the implications of the actions of ministries and individuals who lose sight of the headship of Jesus and usurp his lordship. Never have I seen a minister struggle with concern over taking action like she has here and the impact her actions may have. Joie loves the body of Christ corporately and individually with a level of authenticity and sacrificiality that is rare among American Christians today. It is my privilege to walk together with her in service to Jesus Christ.
Good comments Doug.
I just want to say that – not only have I tested Joie’s prophetic gift – I am very proud of her as her Pastor. The prophetic office in our nation has been polluted. The Lord is restoring the purity of the prophetic office, and what we will see as he does this is TRUTH being spoken. Not just what we want to here…but the truth God knows we need to hear. Yes, the church will take offense…but the Lord will bring about the correction that is needed.
When repentance is called for, repentance will be the message. When encouragement is called for, encouragement will be the message.
That many in the church are hardened to calls for repentance speaks about where the church is spiritually as it relates to harkening to the voice of God. There are too many who discern only by what makes them feel good. Too many are prophesying out of their flesh…and this God will not tolerate. (go read Jeremiah 23:9-40) “Peace, peace when there is no peace.” Make no mistake. Jesus will not relinquish HIS Lordship of His church, nor will such hardness of heart be left unchecked in the Bride.
Joie’s call for repentance in this vital area is part of God’s voice pruning and refining the modern prophetic movement. I stand with her in this wholeheartedly. It is part of God’s work that is desperately needed for the prophetic to be purified.
Finally, I want to affirm Joie’s deep love for the Body of Christ. She is not on a vendetta. Even those local ministers mentioned in this message, she has reached out to them privately many times. Beyond that, I know she continues to love them and pray for them. As someone who knows Joie deeply, I can say without hesitation that comments contrary to this are absolutely false and based only on surface judgments.
I encourage all who read Joie word her to pray carefully and with an open heart to how the Lord might speak to you through it.
Bishop Wilson — I can confirm that Joie first shared this with me in early June 2008. I am also a regular attender of the CCV House of Prayer and can also confirm that she spoke about it there as well before Aug 12th.
“My wife is a woman of whom the world is unworthy. Never have I seen a member of the body of Jesus Christ agonize like she does over the implications of the actions of ministries and individuals who lose sight of the headship of Jesus and usurp his lordship. Never have I seen a minister struggle with concern over taking action like she has here and the impact her actions may have. Joie loves the body of Christ corporately and individually with a level of authenticity and sacrificiality that is rare among American Christians today. It is my privilege to walk together with her in service to Jesus Christ.”
Douglas,
First, just want to say how beautiful those words are and how refreshing it was to hear. They are true! The first thing I thought was “Look how he loves her” and then “Look how they both love Him!!”
Joie,
God will sustain you by His grace. Keep listening and praying and obeying.
I will be praying for you guys.
Joie it is so good that you speak the truth. It is nice to see your passion for the Lord and your obedience to what he is sharing with you. Keep speaking. I also was one that Joie talked to about this before Aug. 12. Love you, JO. STAY STRONG in the Lord keep STANDING on the truth.
I guess the question I have is “would God work outside of His word.?” What I mean is, would He want you to publish this information before you had gone through the correct “channels” and addressed these issues to the people who are involved. I am speaking of Bidal Torrez and Jeff Jansen.
Although you are not in a church building with either of them, you are part of the body with them, and especially the body in this Valley. Did you follow the guidelines in Matthew 18:15-19, taking it first to the individuals, then to 1 or 2 other members of the body, then to the body (as in the letter you wrote.)
Matthew 18:15-19 is the prescribed method of dealing with sin in the body. Did these men have a chance to answer these charges specifically before this was published? Not some general charges that were brought up a few years ago at a City Church meeting, but the charges contained in this letter?
I’m seeking the Truth, as brought forth by the Lord, so I am not judging your letter but asking a question before I make a judgment.
Tim and Joie,
Do you know the hearts of Jeff and Bidal? And like the previous writer asked when have you asked to meet with them and discuss these issues? Even if the answer is yes why call out THESE men by name? A prophecy doesn’t need to name names be prophetic. It seems it only seems to stir controversy NOT correction.
Speak the words. Leave out the names. And let discerning people whom the lord speaks to make their own private calls on whether to attend or not.
Joie
As brothers and sisters in Christ we are supporting and fighting with you for the TRUTH. The belt of TRUTH may be a small article of clothing but it binds up the rest of the armor of God.
The greater the calling on one’s life, the greater the fire (scrutiny/spiritual attack/confronting a personal weakness/the “cross”)one NEEDS to go through. We can view these things as our Lord’s loftly method of bringing forth the greatest revival we’ve been looking for. I think God loves Todd and these other men so much that He would rather see them restored with truth and intimacy with Him than full of signs and wonders. Matthew 7:21- 23 and Romans 8:14 show that miracles and anointing is not what God ultimately wants. God wants us to know Him intimately and to obey Him and His Spirit’s leading.
Thank You, Jesus, that you have baptized us with the Holy Spirit, now baptize your people with fire! Matthew 3:11-12. We love these men and ask you to restore them to greater love,closeness,and power over the flesh and the enemy. Give Joie more grace to speak what is in your heart in the spirit of love. Amen.
About the Matt. 18 process, I spoke to Jeff twice about the words to not come to the Valley after he was in the Bob Jones Camp and I had discussed it with Bidal no less than four times. Then I waited until the Lord told me specifically to go public, to go to the Church with it. Keep in mind that I am not addressing out right sin here but a lack of discernment in how and with whom they are ministering. Neither of these men, to my knowledge, are involved in any type of sin that Todd and his fellow ministerial staff have recently been exposed in. This call from the Lord is about keeping the Body Of Christ on track and about speaking out what we are discerning and prophetically hearing, about dealing with sin in a Biblical way, and about the accountability of our leaders.
“A prophecy doesn’t need to name names be prophetic. It seems it only seems to stir controversy NOT correction.” Anonymous
Do you think that this sentiment is Biblical? I do not. If you look up most of the examples of prophesy in the Old and New Testaments you will see specific names, sins, etc. (See the first couple chapters of Revelations)
First off, I am not exactly sure that you have all of your facts straight. I am not saying that I disagree completely with your message, however. I strongly believe that God is bringing the church into a time of correction and readjusting, separating the sheep from the goats even for an amazing end-time revival. I agree with your visions and prophesies. I do not, however, agree with the interpretation and the way that they were dealt with. I am not feeling the love of Christ through the messages and name naming, only harshness that isn’t necessary. I have to watch that I do not become harsh in this comment myself.
Todd made mistakes, that doesn’t mean that everything that was said was wrong. Todd had a free will. God could have made him into an even mightier man of God, just like the prophets said. God could have had his stamp of approval upon him. Then, he messed it up. Free will. That doesn’t mean that ALL of the prophets were out of line (I believe that some were), it means that Todd was.
I know for a fact that Pastor Bidal Torrez is not associated with Paul Cain. In fact, he never even ended up ministering at the Godstock event. Bidal’s name may have been on the flyer, but he never ministered. He never endorsed Paul Cain, and doesn’t to this day.
As for Jeff Jansen, he himself admitted to chasing the glory of God more than the face of God from the pulpit of Valley Harvest Church. He repented publicly, and is now going through a whole renewing of his ministry with a new focus on the Love of Jesus. Jeff Jansen never spoke at Lakeland, nor did he desire to.
Lakeland wasn’t bad. Signs and wonders aren’t bad. Like you said, you just need to keep Jesus the Head, and some people messed up.
I believe that there is a mix-up with the communications in the church. Not only was this prophecy brought to the congregation before the leadership it concerned, but the leadership brought it to their congregation before bringing it back to you, which is wrong.
The Church is fighting fire with fire instead of overcoming its weaknesses with love. Play nice.
Regarding the Matt. 18 answer, if these accusations you are making about them do not concern “sin,” then how do you label it. You have said they are in disobedience to God. Isn’t that sin?
On another note, I’m a little confused on why you’ve posted such a long discourse on Todd Bentley. Why not get to the point about things instead of spending so much time running down Todd Bentley?
Also, if you knew these things ahead of time, why didn’t you warn people ahead of time? Why didn’t you contact Jeff and let him know what the Lord was saying to you so you could warn Todd and give it over to someone who could try to help Todd ahead of time? Why does this “stuff” always come out after the fact? Jonah was sent ahead of time to warn the Ninevites, so there is evidence of “warnings” in the Bible. God gave the Israelites warnings many times, concerning their disobedience.
Why, also, are people sitting around waiting for something to “happen” to Christ the Rock before they can expect the next move of God to happen, or the “Dark Night” to be over. Why not pray for Christ the Rock’s redemption instead of waiting for its fall, if you say that’s what’s about to happen.
Most of this seems as though it’s “sour grapes” in some way or another. If there is so much love in these “prophecies,” then where is the encouragement to pray that these things DON’T happen and pray for those involved? There are A LOT of people in this valley that would be hurt and confused if all the things you prophesied came to pass. I thought I read on your site at one time that Bidal Torrez’ church wouldn’t be affected by the “Dark Night” because he was leading them through the Spirit. Is he not leading them through the Spirit anymore?
God, help us to pray in Your direction and only speak Your words at Your time!
I truly believe we should pray for strength, growth and a revival explosion at CTR, not confessions of failure and death. It sounds like witchcraft! It would seem the only people believing and confessing this dark night are Joie, Tim Snell and CCV?! Why would we listen to the prophecies your proclaiming while being under this darkness?
Now this is where I find this whole thing to be the MOST ridiculous…
“About the Matt. 18 process, I spoke to Jeff twice about the words to not come to the Valley after he was in the Bob Jones Camp”
1 Jeff Jansen has always been associated with Bob even when you where endorsing him after his initial trip to the valley. Why now?
2 What is Bob’s sin that we aren’t to be influenced be him?!
3 If we are we not to be influenced by Bob Jones… Why have you quoted Bob on YOUR site?
4 Jeff doesn’t have any sin that your alleging, but your going to write him and say… Jeff don’t come to the Valley cuz God is telling ME that YOU have bad judgement?
Joie it seems like you are labeling yourself with the only one with the discernment to bring in speakers or give words! (Because of your post event prophecies!)
Why don’t we discuss your track record as a prophet…
The speaker you endorsed Bernard B (Maybe I dont recall completely) prophesied over the AG church… You will be a springboard to the nations, world changing, a light to the valley… so on and so on. Two months later they collapse. The senior pastor divorcees his wife.
I will quote you know…
“How could so many prominent ministers of our day, many who claim to be hearing directly from the Lord, not have had an inkling that something was very wrong?”
Doesn’t that fit there?
Now….
Your prophecies about VHC and F&G I
It wont happen… It did. Nobody will come… it was the largest conference to that date. It wont meet budget… there was financial breakthrough. It will fail… it did not.
Interesting…
Okay, I’ll try to address your comments in the order that you wrote them. Hope this is easy to follow.
First let me say that one of the main messages in this email is that if we don’t trust and believe in each other enough to speak the truth, that we know, or the truth of what we believe, or receive from the Lord, we aren’t going to mature as the Lord wants us to. So to come and not use your name is a good example of how far behind we are.
About CTR, the prophesies are posted on my web site. I can see how you assumed the heart of them being that we are “confessing death” over them but wow, you really missed it. I think that they speak for themselves.
About only CCV believing me you are simply wrong. However, the Elders at CCV are the only folks that have heard EVERY fact. They are the ones who have worked diligently for over a year and for some with hopes to prove those prophesies wrong, and yet came to the conclusion that they stated in their “Elders Response” seen at this link:
http://shoutsofjoyministries.com/prophecies/ctr.shtml
The only comment that I have about that set of prophesies, which were very extensive, the vast majority of them have come to pass as prophesied and the rest do not have a time limit on them. I do believe that if the people who attend CTR would take a Biblical process when dealing with the sins of their leadership the church would be in a much better state and would be experiencing a great move of the Spirit.
1. When we first met Jeff he had only spoken on the phone with Bob twice. He was befriending folks in his camp as he first began to attend the meeting set up in the Valley. He was not fully in the Bob Jones camp until the conference mentioned in the email.
2. There is no sin that the Lord spoke to about Bob and not being influenced. Again I think that your desire to defend your lack of discernment is causing you to assume things that the word that I shared is not saying. He is a part of a movement in the U.S. that the Lord is not wanting to influence what He is about to do here. It’s just simply that.
3. Like I have said in number 2. we are simply not to be influenced. That doesn’t mean that Bob is not a prophet, it doesn’t mean that he is evil, it doesn’t mean that he hasn’t been used by the Lord in the past, nor does it testify that he was. I was simply quoting a word about Wisconsin that I heard of.
4. Not sure what you are referring to here in point 4. If you are referring to the first time that Jeff and I spoke about the words regarding him not coming here, we spoke in person about them once and then on the phone the next time. At that time he asked me not to tell the word publicly and I told him that I wouldn’t unless the Lord specifically told me to. If you are referring to this email I am in NO WAY telling Jeff not to come because he has bad judgment. I continue in standing by what the Lord has told me not to be influenced by either the Bob Jones nor the Dutch sheets/C. Peter Wagner camp until the outpouring here begins.
Please try not to change what I am saying to try to prove me wrong. Can’t we discuss this and use the exact words and sentiments as we discern together what the Lord wants for the Valley?
Regarding my track record, I do believe that every word given by any prophet needs to be discerned. Haven’t we learned that lesson as we watched the Prophets of our day speak over Todd while he was in sin? But okay, I think that this is a good place to clear up some misconceptions and also continue to work over if the prophesies that have yet to come to pass are actually from the Lord or not.
Regarding Bernard, his name is Bernard Blessing and I do not know about the prophesy you quoted here so I can’t speak to it. But I can say that the Lord spoke to me about him for over 18 years. Then when he finally came doing what the Lord said he would be doing, he fulfilled a very specific prophesy to the t. He set me up with Darius and sent me on my way to Rwanda and our very fruitful ministry there. The whole prophesy can be seen at this link:
http://shoutsofjoyministries.com/rwanda/calltoafrica.shtml
About him not getting any words about what was amiss you simply do not have all the facts. Bernard prophesied many things about the serious troubles that were going on at Kingsway. Many of those words were not released to the public but some were. The District Super Intendant also came and had Bernard apologize for sharing some of that with the congregation.
There were no prophesies about VHC and fire and glory not happening. I have no idea what your talking about here.
About not meeting the budget, there was a word about not getting the money but we didn’t know who wouldn’t get the money and the thought about it was that Bidal, Mike and Pastor Steve would not get money. We knew it did not refer to Jeff. I have a number of emails and chat conversations that speak at length about this and confirm what I am saying here. If you want them I can send them to you.
About Fire and Glory failing? I have no idea what you are speaking about. No prophesies about that either.
That’s very disconcerting that your using either false accusations, repeating lies, or are simply making things up to prove that the word about the problems at Lakeland and the call to not be influenced by it’s camp are not true. I suggest that you turn to prayer to see if a word is from the Lord or not, and if you are going to publicly address someones “track record” I think that you should at the very least have the facts straight.
I really think that we have missed the point of this word. Here are my thoughts. The Lord is asking us to speak the truth. He is also saying that we need to make him the Head of the Church. We all need to use the discernment that he gave us. We also need to call sin, sin and not just a mistake. God wants to clean up his Church so He can bring a true revival and true reformation. That comes from us repenting of our sin. Then he is speaking about the sin of idolatry. Idolatry is when we don’t make Christ the Head and when we put our focus on a man, angels, sings and wonders. This is what the Lord wants and it all starts with prayer and repentance.
Thank you.
Joie, I could write a book to you but I am simply going to say this: your words have always spoken nothing but death and destruction to a legitimate and powerful move of God that has touched hundreds of people. Everything you have “prophecied” has NEVER come to pass and in fact the opposite has come to pass….only God’s blessings and in abundance. And why DO you always speak your so-called “warnings” in a manner that would bring division and negativity? God never speaks doom over anyone. I personally remember you prophecying over a dear sweet lady that something “horrible” would happen to her. Thank God she knew better, and thank God your words NEVER even came close to coming to pass. God is merciful and even when God does speak words of warning to His children, He does so in a way that is compassionate and in love, not in death and hate. The way you speak curses is actually witchcraft. Yes, witchcraft! Yes, Todd Bentley made a mistake. The blessings spoken over Todd by MANY prominent ministers, not just Bob Jones and Paul Cain, were blessings over what GOD was doing, not what TODD was doing. The move of God in Lakeland was about GOD, not TODD. Todd Bentley is a human being. Why do you just choose his sin to make your point? Walk in his shoes and perhaps you wouldn’t be so quick to judge. This is not to dismiss the mistakes he made, but the Bible is clear about what judgement comes upon those who judge. (Matthew 7:1) As a follower of Christ, have you not learned to speak in compassion and mercy…. for mercy triumphs over judgement? And neither Bob Jones nor Jeff Jansen EVER caused any division in City Church. YOU my friend, are the only one who ever attempted to do that. You have tried your best to bring division for a long time now. Jeff has only brought excitement for God and revival to the region. Could it be the issues you raise are just personal “sour grapes” or bitterness? I believe so. I believe you would gain a lot more respect if you would pray FOR God’s children and His chosen leaders in love and not try and tear them down. This includes leaders in the region, Valley Harvest, Christ the Rock, Bob Jones, Paul Cain, Jeff Jansen, Bidal Torrez, shall I go on? And just for the record, Paul Cain was asked to simply share his “stadium word” that he had many years ago at Godstock, which is all he did on one evening. Godstock was scheduled to be a “stadium” event, similar to Woodstock. And the body of Christ IS beginning to see the fulfillment of Paul Cain’s stadium word. Just the beginning, but it is happening! This is also why Paul was asked to share this word at Lakeland. He was one of the first to see what God would do in these days. I am pretty sure that YOU do not know Paul personally nor do you know his walk with God, so here again all you are doing is judging him. I pray you get a real grip on your own heart issues and turn…….repent for speaking curses over anointed men of God! Speak blessings! Not curses! It seems you only want to see God move according to what you believe YOU see. I thank God HE is so much bigger than that and personally, I don’t want to be guilty of putting Him in a box or judging His anointed.
I would like to make a comment on all of this “stuff.”
I have been praying over this and grieving over it, and I’m saddened that two leaders in the Valley who are gifted in the prophetic seem to speak different things about the Valley and both proclaim they are right. The saddest part of it is that the two of you-Bidal and Joie-are no longer communicating with each other and that both of you feel it is necessary to deride the other in the privacy of your individual gatherings.
I’ve spent a lot of time at Valley Harvest Church, and I’ve also kept up on the postings of prophetic words from SOJ ministries and I have friends who frequent your events. I believe that both Joie and Bidal Torrez are prophets, however, they are seeing things from different angles and with different ministry purposes. Bidal believes he is bringing in a move of God, and Joie is looking for the same to happen. God only knows what the move will look like, however, one thing is certain, He will get the glory and the focus will be on Him, not on man, nor what man prophesied, nor who was right.
The lay persons in this Valley are so tired of the bickering back and forth between ministries that they are leaving the ministries in droves and coming together in little groups where they can just seek God while not under the “covering” of a church who is going to bind them up in serving their programs instead of seeking the will of God and simply moving in it.
Joie,
As someone who has heard Bidal Torrez state (more than once)
that you prophesied financial failure over the F&G meetings a couple of years ago, I would like to see the original emails/prophecies posted. He has stated that you prophesied financial doom (they wouldn’t meet the budget),that the meetings would be a failure and they would have low attendance. I guess I would like to know who’s really telling the truth. It’s not to condemn anyone, but to find out for myself if the truth is being told/interpreted correctly. I am asking you to post those emails/prophecies where they can easily be seen on your website. I have some serious decisions to make and I’d like to see those first.
I am not looking to take them back and use them as ammunition, just to make some decisions of my own. I cannot financially support a ministry who is purposefully misrepresenting another person/ministry and has now begun to give you a “name” from the pulpit.
Thank you.
Joie,
I will skip around a lot in this comment, but it’s just my thoughts.
I do believe in some sense that you have a prophetic gift, however, I think that you/your board of leaders have some troubles discerning what you should and should not say to the public.
Let’s get one thing straight – I DON’T believe in posting negative messages about other ministries on the internet for everyone and his brother to read. If you have a church or body that you believe needs to hear this message THAT’s who you should be sharing your information with, after the Matthew 18 process: you should first go to the individual you are having issues with, then 2 or 3 other people, THEN take it to the church.
The “people” in this case, is not everyone that has access to your web blog. This just stirs controversy, confusion, and negativity in every aspect – just look at your comments, and you’ll see that mostly everything that anyone has said about your ‘prophecies’ are negative. The ‘people’ is the body of Christ (your church) that you belong to. I’m sorry, but you don’t have the authority to tell the WHOLE body of Christ what is “going on” or has gone on in the lives or ministries of other leaders.
Another thing – I will quote you on this:
“First let me say that one of the main messages in this email is that if we don’t trust and believe in each other enough to speak the truth, that we know, or the truth of what we believe, or receive from the Lord, we aren’t going to mature as the Lord wants us to. So to come and not use your name is a good example of how far behind we are.”
-Why we stay Anonymous:
Because you attack us/and or our churches and leaders. If you don’t know who we are, you can’t attack us. The truth is the truth, no matter what name is behind it. There is nothing wrong with anonymity. Don’t attack people because they remain anonymous.
Another thing:
Remember when the woman was brought before Jesus because of sin and Jesus said, ye that are without sin cast the first stone? Have any of you made a mistake?
I do think that you maybe have some valid points in your message but have you made mistakes before? Why do you need to reveal these other ministers’ mistakes to the world even if they did do these things you are accusing them of? Wouldn’t you like the grace to grow if you made an error, a chance you didn’t give them? You say that you told them of your beliefs, but these that you mention (I’m talking of Bidal Torrez and Jeff Jansen here) are honorable, prophetic men. If they really discerned that these were true, they would have taken them into consideration. But I do think that you have ruined your connection/friendships with them, and it would take a lot at this point to patch it up; especially since you publicly pointed them out by name.
Maybe God is showing you these things so that you can pray for them, and stop these things through intercession, instead of publicly tearing people apart.
I believe, really, what you’ve done is mix prophecy with your criticism. Please don’t post negative ‘prophecies’ on a blog.
Okay here, well then lets have it.
To Number 34.) I am sitting here reading over what you have written and it sort of freaks me out that you could be believing so many things that are not true. Has it occurred to you that what you are doing here in your post, is what you are accusing me of doing?
There are so many false accusations in this post of yours that I think I’ll sum up my response by suggesting that you read your Bible with an eye out for prophesy. Many, many times God pronounces judgment on His people through His prophets. I’ll let that speak for itself. Also many of your purported facts are simply not true.
#35.) I agree with most of what you say. If you take a look at what Bidal is actually prophesying we are almost exactly the same in our prophesies. The only thing that I know of, that we disagree with, is having that Camp here hosted by City Church. I also agree that it is God who will take the glory and also bring revival! For the record I believe that it is Biblical to attend a local church. Granted the “local church” can be very small, but a church it needs to be.
#36.) If Bidal is really saying those things, he knows that they are not the truth. Now, he may have heard rumors that were not true or misunderstood some things, but if he is saying that he got them from me directly he is not telling the truth. I have no emails to prove that I never prophesied anything about attendance being low or any thing about failure because there just wasn’t anything ever said about that, but as I have posted above, I did prophesy to Bidal, Steve, and Mike that, and I quote, “If you have Jeff in again you will not get the money.” This was told to them at a leaders meeting where we all were very aware that Jeff received an offering and not a certain wage, so we briefly discussed what money and who would not get it, but as I told them then and have in these chats and emails we never really knew who was not going to get the money. It seemed like He was referring to the Pastors mentioned but we just didn’t know. I don’t think that it would be appropriate to post those chats and emails on my web site because they were done in private and were with people who work for those Pastors. I can email them to you though because I believe that you are sincere. If you want to remain anonymous I can send them to my Pastor and you can stop in his office and get them from him, or ask him to email them to you.
#37.) There are many places in the Bible where the prophet tells publicly the sin and the names of those who did them. Not only did they tell everyone but they also put them in the Bible who everyone in the world can read.
I want to add something, I think that it is wise to give prophesies and let them stand for themselves regardless of how people respond. But I believe that there is so much misunderstanding regarding a true Biblical theology of prophesy that this discourse is important. I also think that as folks discern well they may need more of the facts. So, that’s why I am doing this on the blog. Later…
To one of the anonymous people:
I have intentionally not gotten into the specifics of all the discussion here as that really isn’t my role as Joie’s pastor. But I do feel the need to clarify one thing related to Joie’s prophecy about the money.
Joie said: “About not meeting the budget, there was a word about not getting the money but we didn’t know who wouldn’t get the money and the thought about it was that Bidal, Mike and Pastor Steve would not get money. We knew it did not refer to Jeff. I have a number of emails and chat conversations that speak at length about this and confirm what I am saying here. If you want them I can send them to you.”
Then Anonymous said: “As someone who has heard Bidal Torrez state (more than once) that you prophesied financial failure over the F&G meetings a couple of years ago, I would like to see the original emails/prophecies posted.”
Anonymous,
I see Joie may forward some emails to me if you desire (I haven’t received them yet) but I can speak to a couple of things on this.
1. I had numerous conversations with Joie about what this prophecy meant prior to the F&G conference actually happening. I can confirm that in those conversations, Joie wondered aloud what it meant when she heard God say “you will not get the money.” She wasn’t sure if it meant Bidal, the conference, or something else. So I can confirm that this was something Joie spoke with me about personally PRIOR to that conference ever happening.
2. I can confirm that Bidal asked me to come in to speak to him about this particular prophecy. (I believe the date of my meeting with Bidal was 11/30/06). At that meeeting I was very clear to Bidal that Joie, in the conversations I had had with her, was unclear as to what this particular prophecy meant PRIOR to the F&G. Therefore, I could confirm to him that she did NOT see her prophetic message as a statement about whether Jeff or the conference or anyone else would not get the money. Joie simply wasn’t sure what to make of what it meant.
So…while I was not present during Joie’s conversation with Bidal (and can’t speak to that)…I do know that any confusion about her message was discussed at length in this meeting I had with Bidal and clarified for Him. Whether Bidal recieved what I said, I do not know. I do know, regardless of how it was received, this was the truth as it unfolded and Joie spoke about this particular prophecy with me.
Perhaps this will help clear up some of the misunderstanding here.
Thank you to Joie and Pastor Tim, I appreciate your input and honesty.
I guess at this point I am satisfied with what you have “said,” and I don’t need to see any emails. I am mostly saddened by the “misunderstandings” that have taken place, whether purposeful or accidental. The information you have given in these postings was never released in the discourses given at VHC through Bidal, so it’s good to get another perspective on things.
As a side note, I am not against the (or any) church, I just wonder how God defines the church in comparison with how man defines it.
Thank you for your help.
Back again, whew, long day. I wanted to come back and edit my last post, #38. I ‘niced’ it up a bit. What I mean is, that when I reread it I thought, “Dude, Joie settle down, these are your brothers and sisters and unity and love is still the goal.” I apologize for my sarcasm. It likes to pop out especially when I think that I am right. I have to remember, like we all need to, that prophesy needs to be discerned no matter who gives it, even when it’s yourself. And that we need to be able to receive and pray about what may tweak our flesh so that we have the opportunity to kill the Dad burn thing. The flesh, not the offender…:)
So, all that to say if you read my post #38. again and thought, “hey that sounds different” well, that’s because it is different.
Lovies and good night!
Hello Joie:
It’s me, Pastor Mike Kustic from Bonduel, responding to your comments where you brought my name in. First, I am going to record that what I am going to share are the facts, to the best of my knowledge, of the events of 2006 that you keep referring to. I a not interested in a bunch of e-mails or other comments. I thought this was over with in 2006 when you, Joie, chose to leave City Church board. For some reason, it is resurfacng, but in reading your letter and ensuing comment about Todd Bentley, Pastor Bidal, Jeff Jansen, and City Church, you are ommitting, for reasons unknown to me, some very pertinent facts. So, I will “release” them and people can apply or discern as needed. City Church, which is what it finally ended up being called, was formed in the summer of 2005 as a group of pastors, ministry leaders, IHOP, and others coming together to bring a wave and outpouring to the valley. I Pastor in Bonduel 35 miles north of Appleton. Many others traveled even farther to work together to bring Fire & Glory One together with Jeff Jansen and David Alsobrook. You, Joie, were very involved and approved of it. In winter of 2006, we had the second Fire & Glory conference with Jeff Jansen & Ryan Wyatt. Again, you were involved and approved of it. In April 2006, was Days of Power, where we used local speakers, Pastor Bidal, Pastor Steve, myself, Pastor Jason and yourself were speakers. It seems strange to me when you could have a platform to speak from, City Church was on the right track hearing from God. However, in the summer of 2006 is when you approached the board of City Church, which was made up of Pastor Steve, Pastor Bidal, Joie Pirkey, and myself, that you could not participate in the October Fire & Glory conference “if we were having Jeff Jansen, anybody else, it would be okay.” Joie, we invested a lot of time with you during the next month or two trying to determine why we could not be “influenced by these camps.” To date, you have never given me or anyone else that answer. Any ministry that speaks into our lives sows a seed—it is up to us as mature leaders to see if and how it applies to what God is calling us to accomplish through our lies and ministry. That being said, Pastor Steve pointed out that you were a leader in City Church and if you did not attend or support the conferences it would be viewed as disapproval by those lives your ministry influences. I know we spent several meetings trying to resolve this impass,but were unable to. Your comments was “I have to obey God, you guys would not want me to disobey God, would you??” Well, of course we would not want you to disobey God. The question was, did you hear from God or was their another reason you did not want Jeff there. In one of the meeting, I had Paula figure out what we thought budget or the cost of the transportation, meals, and lodging would be for our speakers. I think the figure was close to $5,000.00. Since in these meeings there were four ministry leaders, all who can and do hear God’s voice, and you were the only one say NO, we decided to continue with the conferences. Joie, I remember asking you ,”what if the money comes in?” Your answer was, “I don’t know, I just have to obey God.” Joie we all can miss God. It does not mean we are evil, dark, or horrible. It means we are human in need of a throne of grace. Hebrews 4:16 We held the conference and the offerings were about 7-8 times over budget, if I am not mistaken. All God was trying to show you was you missed it, and it could and should have ended there. But, it did not, so this is why I have chosen to put all the facts out there. After the conference you back tracked with, “I did not say it would not (money) come in.” YES, you did, Joie. So we had more meetings (time invested) with you trying to understand your heart. Somewhere in those meetings we were aware of thd division this was causing and according to the Bible, division or strife is NOT from God!! James 3:13-18 In trying to resolve this division, we informed you that Jeff Jansen and Bob Jones would be speaking at the October 2007 Fire & Glory conference and, how would that apply to you?? You emphatically stated that you had to obey God and could not participate if “they” were coming. So, we asked you, how can you be a part of the City Church Board if you disagree with what we are doing or the speakers we were bringing to the valley?? Your answer was if You want to remove me you can, but God told me I am to be involved in this group. I am sorry, but that is confusion, it was then and is now. My Bible states that God is NOT the author of confusion. I believe after more meetings it was determined to remove you from the board. You gave us no choice Psalm 133. WE WANT UNITY!!!! You implied “your word” broke up City Church. NOT TRUE. City Church is still in existence today. Pastor Steve, Pastor Bidal, and myself are still fellowshipping and in communication with each other. So, how is it not here any more???? The problem is when someone tries to bring correction or at best instruction if it is not the way you see it, it is not from God. Well, I beg to differ. Your own Pastor, Tim Snell, who gives you such great endorsements, sat in a meeting with us and explained that when you were occupying Pastor Bidal and Pastor Steve’s pulput, he had sat you down for a season because he saw issues that needed addressing. Pastor Tim was right when he questioned the three of us in the scope of unity: “Did we call him about you before we gave you a platform?” Our answer was “no” and we were wrong!! Had we checked we would not be wasting all the time we are now trying to prove who was right. What is right is this: God is pouring out His spirit anywhere there are hungry people, be it Lakeland, Valley Harvest Church, CCV, Christ The Rock, The River Church, Full Gospel Assembly, or any other church. He said in Matthew 5:6: BLESSED ARE THEY WHICH DO HUNGER AND THIRST AFTER RIGHTEOUSNESS, FOR THEY SHALL BE FILLED. So quit trying to prove you were right. Get over it and let’s get busy doing the Father’s business.
P.S. The only reason I am sending this is because you made it sound in your commens that my salary or money from Fire & Glory would not be there. I never had received a salary from City Church, I am involved with CC because I want to be a part of what God is doing. You should know, Joie, you also were on the board. To all of you out there reading this lengthy comment, please do not take my word or Joie’s word for it. Come and see what the Lord is doing in the Valley. Our next Fire & Glory conference is October 15-19. Please come and check it out for yourself. You will be blessed!!!
Wow-thanks for the comments Pastor Mike.
I was the one who specifically asked Joie to give input on the “prophecies” about F&G. I did this because Bidal has dedicated 2 services (one very recently) to talking about Joie and why she is wrong, and he now has labeled her with a name which was put out before everyone in attendance at VHC. I felt I needed to know her interpretation of things, only because Bidal opened up the “can of worms” and put it on the altar at VHC for everyone to see.
I guess the bottom line is this: Just get away with God and seek His will and answer to these questions if they are troubling you. That’s my intention here-no more focus on these “things,” but on the sweetness of my Jesus!
Mike,
I need to respond to a one of the things you wrote so that it is clarified publicly.
My comments during the meeting you referenced in your post spoke about checking with me as the Pastor of CCV regarding Joie during the time she was asked to step back from ministry at CCV (as our eldership investigated the CTR prophecies). You wording misconstrued what I said that day and implies something that is simply not accurate.
My words that day were NOT spoken in the context of Joie’s involvement in any of the F&G conferences…as if she shouldn’t be involved. Rather, my comments were directed at and spoke of disparaging comments some of the ministers on the City Church board made denegrating CCV during the season Joie was out of ministry – long BEFORE F&G happened. These comments had demonstrated a disrespect of the leadership of other bodies in the Valley by the ministers involved with City Church at the time of that meeting. These comments were NOT a reflection on Joie in any way…or her ministry standing at the time of that meeting (as evidenced by the fact that she had been released with our blessing back into ministry) but were comments related to an attitude by the ministers involved in City Church that had demonstrated a willingness to denegrate others without investigating the facts…an attitude which I was addressing that day as I believed it had continued even to the time of that meeting. (This is also why I spoke to you about concerns I had related to how you were promoting F&G in ways that many other ministers in the valley continued to have concerns about…and choosing to willfully ignore those concerns.)
Finally, let me state that you bringing this up at this time, not only has misconstrued the facts of that meeting I was involved in, and inaccurately portray my comments as implying Joie should not have been involved in ministry…but has spoken to your own character on a deeper level.
The issues I spoke of during the course of the conversation that day were issues which were sensitive to Joie, to City Church, to other churches in the Valley…and to the broader issue of how to seek and promote unity in ways which didn’t marginalize other churches or believers. Because some of what I said was pointed and direct, that day I asked for each of you to keep that conversation in confidence. You gave me your word you would. I am sad to see you have not only misrepresented my words in that conversation, construing Joie in a way my words did not – but you have also chosen to not honor the confidentiality of that conversation as you promised on that day.
I am deeply saddened to have to send this rebuke publicly. I know you are a man of God. I have no doubt about that. I stand with you as my brother and stand in support of God’s work in and through your ministry. That said, your role as a Pastor only hightens the accountability to which you are held, especially during situations in which there is controversy. While knowing of the devil’s propensity to take advantage of the failings of our flesh (mine included), my prayer is (and belief is) that the Lord will not allow that here.
On a larger note related to this whole thread. It can be agreed upon by all who have posted here that the role of the prophetic and the words of prophets throughout scripture have inevitably caused controversy. It should be no surpirse that this dynamic is true in our own day as well. My encouragement to us all (regardless of perspective) is to step back, take a deep breath, and see how God unfolds HIS plan in the coming weeks and months here in the Valley. We are all God’s children on this forum board. We all desire to see His will unfolded and His Spirit break through powerfully to see people saved, healed and delivered. Our energy spent bickering would be much better invested in prayer, engaging in ministry, and making sure the devil gets his tail kicked as the Holy Spirit uses each of us. In the end, God will have his way regardless of perspective. Our job will be to say yes to Him…and to remember we are all a part of one family.
“Our energy spent bickering would be much better invested in prayer, engaging in ministry, and making sure the devil gets his tail kicked as the Holy Spirit uses each of us. In the end, God will have his way regardless of perspective”
Way to go.
Tim,
AMEN ! ! ! If we are to establish unity in the body of Christ, we must STAND TOGETHER.
My suggestion is that when we hear words from God, spoken into our lives and our churches, through prophets, or through the Bible, we should always step back, and take a breath, AND PRAY.
Doing His work!
Here is a link to an article written by Lee Grady of Charisma Magazine about what happened at Lakeland. He raises a number of the same questions that I have raised in the email specifically about discernment:
http://charismamag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3154
The focus of all of this should not and is not on Todd Bentley’s sin, but is on the amazing lack of discernment of the Body of Christ including the leaders involved. It is even more difficult to discern well if those who are seeing things clearly do not speak up. Add to the top of all of that, people covering the truth, distorting the truth, and misrepresenting the truth. It causes so many to be lead down path ways the Lord is simply not leading us.
I believe that it is not useless bickering to struggle through different people’s opinions, different people’s discernment’s, when we are trying to figure out what God wants and what God doesn’t want. Discourse is necessary. If we are not mature enough to speak the truth in love and discuss it openly when folks oppose us, then are we really ready for revival?
Please do not loose focus here, the focus is not me. The focus is this, “we are not supposed to be influenced by the Bob Jones Camp nor the C. Peter Wagner Camp, here in the Fox Valley, while God is birthing a new thing here. It will have it’s own personality, it’s own distinctives, it’s own way.” This doesn’t have to do with ANY sin in either camp. This has to do with how God wants to birth what He is about to birth, here. These camps have tried to come in, and in their own words “bring revival”. I am simply saying that this is a prophesy for the Fox Valley and am asking you to discern it. It was prophesied over five years ago before we knew anyone from either camp and now both camps are trying to come in.
What will you do? You personally. Please, ask God.
And as you discern this for yourself, if the Holy Spirit leads you to ask questions or to clear things up, this is the place. I will answer you as honestly as I can and with as much proof as is possible.
I want to share something that God made clear to me a while ago and has confirmed since then through two very respected men of God. Unity is not the goal. Calibrating to Christ as the Head is the goal. And when we calibrate to Jesus Christ,not to agreement nor to the status quo, not to manifestations of the Spirit, nor to visions of things to come, but just Him and Him alone-who is worthy!!!!only then will we be truly unified. Only then will we experience the full stature of maturity with Him as our Head.
Thank you Joie for the message you sent which talks about speaking the truth. One thing that I can say about speaking the truth, is that it is not an easy task. Many people do not like the truth, in fact it is a human weakness. Without the Lord Jesus in any one’s life nobody can do it on his or her own, because the truth is Jesus himself in us. Living in the truth and speaking the truth can only be possible by the power of the Holy Spirit. So what you did was right if that was the way the Lord led you to do it. You should not fear people whenever you are sure the Lord told you something, especially messages concerning the churh of Christ. Take courage and stand firm on the word given, for it is not for you as an individual, but to the entire church. To warn it to know the timing as the Spirit reveals the work of work at the present time.
This may seem a little “out there,” but I am going to write what I’ve observed and been feeling for a long time.
Concerning the “revival” that VHC and Bidal Torrez are presuming to bring in, this is what I am seeing:
There is a revival that is coming in, but it won’t look like what they think it will look like. People even now are beginning to tire of looking for signs and wonders, and manifestations. They are beginning to get to the point where those things are ancillary and they will be so tired and frustrated with waiting for those things to manifest that they will put everything aside (partially out of frustration) to get rid of the frills and just seek God. Every move brought in recently has an “element” of God in it, but the people’s hearts in many of these moves have been seeking the hand and “proof” of the wealth and power of God instead of the heart of God. So, this move being brought into the Valley through Bidal and his “camp” will turn out to be a “move” but not in the way he is thinking. It will get to the point where people are ready to put aside the “stuff” and pour out their hearts to God in true revival mode (repentance), love for the unsaved (instead of giving to “get” for self, they will give to help the poor and needy and the move will not be centered in a church building.) This will happen because they are fed up with looking for proof that God has manifested in their presence and are wanting to manifest God in their lives! So, yes, I believe Bidal is working to bring in what God has in mind, and that he wants the true revival, but maybe his method of getting there is a little side-stepped from what God has in mind.
This is not to say that Bidal is not assisting in bringing in a true revival, but it is not happening in the way he thinks it is, but God is still using theses conferences, etc. to help bring in the true revival. That is why Joie is saying “don’t be influenced by these camps.” The revival doesn’t come because Bidal is bringing in these men, although they are not ungodly men, it’s not what the revival will look like so don’t get used to it.
This situation is like the instance where the angel appeared to Joshua (Joshua 5:13-15) and Joshua said “are you for them or for us,” and the angel replied “No, as commander of the army of the Lord I have come.” In other words, the angel was saying “I am for the Lord and for His work.” That is why we have differing opinions on these things that are being spoken. God is working His work, not Bidals, not Joie’s, not any one of our works, and parts of the body get different insights into what He is doing, but not the whole picture. That is why the body so desperately needs to come together in total understanding of what God is saying.
The body of Christ is so beginning to desperately seek Him and deep fellowship with Him, which is the only way the end time work can be done. The revival in Lakeland is proof of this. Yes, Todd Bentley sinned, but so have many other Christians. Look in Hebrews 11 and see what God had to say about Abraham-there’s nothing in it about how Abraham lied to the rulers (out of fear) about his wife being his sister or how he tried to bring in God’s plan by birthing a baby through a woman who wasn’t his wife (parallels a little with what’s happening with the “revival” as mentioned above). God saw that Abraham’s walk had faults, and God addressed them with Abraham, but Abraham’s legacy was one of serving God, as attested to in Hebrews 11. That is not to say that Todd Bentley doesn’t have sin, or the rest of us for that matter, and that it doesn’t need to be dealt with. However, man is man and we need to see that God let’s no one else take His glory!
I am not technical but I thought I would try this sample note and then engage in the dialog as I get up to speed.
On a side note my name is Pat Boyer and I was recently involved in renting Lambeau for a II Chronicles 7:14 gathering on 7-7-07
Here we go